Why not simply ask, what do you humans find valuable that has representation or makes or has made a difference in the actual world? This way, you exclude religion (one can still find solace in the history or philosophy of religion without believing faeries really exist, just like one can enjoy Christmas and the traditions that go along with it without believing in a man named Santa Clause who lives at the north pole).

Anyway, I find enjoyment in books: knowledge of new words, new ideas, people who lived and passed down their thoughts, thoughts that now enter my consciousness hundreds, even thousands, of years later.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)tonyc4444 Wrote: Well I have already formed my opinion on whether or not Christians are Patriotic, and I won't deviate from that one inch.

Care to give any evidence to that degree?

(And again, you'd do well to make clear you're speaking specifically of the American christians that you've encountered, not "Christians".)

I think this thread got unnecessarily antagonistic, OP. I have an idea why:

1) This forum is very international. Only about half (if that) of the regularly posting members are American. It is hosted in France. So generalizations can be taken a little more seriously than you might think. People's concept of "Christian" is not necessarily of the evangelical American Republican type.

2) We are a conversational community on this board. That isn't to contradict what others are saying. We are collective in one and only one respect: the answer to the question "Is there a god?" is for the most part "not so far as I can tell." We get a lot of Christians/theists coming in here, telling us what we believe as atheists. IMO, you have been relatively good on this point. Some of the vitriol you are experiencing is a direct result of your predecessors, fair or not.

3) It is certainly insulting to come into an established group and insist that that group play by your rules of decorum, no? We generally like people to introduce themselves and become a part of the community before using us for research purposes. This is the biggest reason why you are not being received well, IMO.

As far as answers to your questions: Family, Prosperity, Community. Those are my three.

I think what's most important for your atheist character as far as representing an atheist is concerned is that he is not a caricature. Movies like "God is not Dead" or "Do You Believe?" more recently are rife with these people that aren't even atheists. They're theists who are angry with a god that they believe in. If you get the idea that an (agnostic) atheist is simply a person who says there's not been evidence as of yet that convinces me that there is a god(s), then you'll be fine.

Most fictional atheists I have heard about are the strawman ones in apologist books. Like an unnamed university professor, who doesn't understand what atheism is, nor has apparently given the subject more than a second's thought, and is instantly won round by a fallacious argument from a stranger.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Nestor Wrote: Why not simply ask, what do you humans find valuable that has representation or makes or has made a difference in the actual world? This way, you exclude religion (one can still find solace in the history or philosophy of religion without believing faeries really exist, just like one can enjoy Christmas and the traditions that go along with it without believing in a man named Santa Clause who lives at the north pole).

Anyway, I find enjoyment in books: knowledge of new words, new ideas, people who lived and passed down their thoughts, thoughts that now enter my consciousness hundreds, even thousands, of years later.

I did that. God, Family, Country. Everybody on the planet identifies with one of those three things. Well just about everybody. As many people in here already pointed out how important family is to them. I was simply wondering (erroneously apparently) if the Atheist community shared any other values.

I love books too! Especially writing them, fascinating stuff.

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(March 25, 2015 at 3:11 pm)robvalue Wrote: Most fictional atheists I have heard about are the strawman ones in apologist books. Like an unnamed university professor, who doesn't understand what atheism is, nor has apparently given the subject more than a second's thought, and is instantly won round by a fallacious argument from a stranger.

Well that's what I'm trying avoid. I always try and make my characters as real as possible.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:13 pm)tonyc4444 Wrote: I was simply wondering (erroneously apparently) if the Atheist community shared any other values.

There's often that fallacy of atheism being a belief. There's a quote I'm rather fond of. Wish I had thought of it myself, but I didn't. And to my shame I can't even name it's origin. It goes like this: Atheism is a belief in the same way as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

I think that sums it up pretty nicely.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:13 pm)tonyc4444 Wrote: I did that. God, Family, Country. Everybody on the planet identifies with one of those three things. Well just about everybody. As many people in here already pointed out how important family is to them. I was simply wondering (erroneously apparently) if the Atheist community shared any other values.

I love books too! Especially writing them, fascinating stuff.

So beyond the differences in how atheists and Christians treat fictional writings, why do you even need to ask "atheists" as if we don't experience the same world of struggles any other person does? It's like asking, "What do people without beards like to do?"

(March 25, 2015 at 3:10 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I think this thread got unnecessarily antagonistic, OP. I have an idea why:

1) This forum is very international. Only about half (if that) of the regularly posting members are American. It is hosted in France. So generalizations can be taken a little more seriously than you might think. People's concept of "Christian" is not necessarily of the evangelical American Republican type.

Which is exactly the problem. I didn't know it was so international. That was my bad.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:10 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: 2) We are a conversational community on this board. That isn't to contradict what others are saying. We are collective in one and only one respect: the answer to the question "Is there a god?" is for the most part "not so far as I can tell." We get a lot of Christians/theists coming in here, telling us what we believe as atheists. IMO, you have been relatively good on this point. Some of the vitriol you are experiencing is a direct result of your predecessors, fair or not.

Yeah, I'm Christian but I'm not particularly pleased in the way many Christians behave.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:10 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: 3) It is certainly insulting to come into an established group and insist that that group play by your rules of decorum, no? We generally like people to introduce themselves and become a part of the community before using us for research purposes. This is the biggest reason why you are not being received well, IMO.

Well that may be but I'm a busy person who doesn't spend very much time in online forums. I have no intention on returning here when I'm done. I appreciate your candor and I can respect why you think this way, but not much point in introducing myself and pretending like I'm going to stick around just to get some small information.

(March 25, 2015 at 3:10 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: As far as answers to your questions: Family, Prosperity, Community. Those are my three.

I think what's most important for your atheist character as far as representing an atheist is concerned is that he is not a caricature. Movies like "God is not Dead" or "Do You Believe?" more recently are rife with these people that aren't even atheists. They're theists who are angry with a god that they believe in. If you get the idea that an (agnostic) atheist is simply a person who says there's not been evidence as of yet that convinces me that there is a god(s), then you'll be fine.

Thank you, Family and community are things that I'm definetly going to include already, prosperity is a good one and I'll give this more thought. I appreciate your insight.

If you could put in a scene where the atheist eats a baby, I think we'd all appreciate it :p