Mystic, would you say that a person can agree with ideals or moral statements as expressed in the contents of a story -hold them to be good, true, and beautiful....even if that story is about a footrace between a rabbit and hare?  A lazy cricket and an industrious ant?  A wandering god who, in the shape of an old man - beg at the doors of strangers at night seeking food, shelter, and of course callous people?  I, personally, am comfortable with agreeing with the contents of these stories, the message - regardless of whether woodland creatures organize 10k marathons.....regardless of whether or not ants and crickets debate the value of hard work.......and regardless of whether or not there is a tremendous divine force rewarding the welcoming and punishing those who turn out hungry, cold strangers in the dead of the night.

None of those stories have to be true, for me to wish they were, or agree that they should be (of course, no amount of beauty is enough to make them factually true- but does that matter?).  I don't have to believe in any of that to state that some stories are so beautiful that we should make them true, especially if they aren't.   How about you, seems to me that we may not have all that different an experience in this regard.  Probably says more about us than it does about the stories - if so.  

Rhythm. It's been a long time we've discussed. Peace and blessings of God be upon you, and may he awaken you to the nature of the origin of his blessings, and awaken you to the one who rewards you or punishes you, makes you gain in your soul or makes you lose, honors you when you do good and disgraces you when do evil, the one by which all values of people get their value and is maintained, and the basis to all praise, the raiser of ranks, the lord of the infinite worlds.

There is the folowing parts to this argument.

1) Praise being a proof to God's greatness and his favors, and even his existence.
2) Exalted wisdom existing.
3) Super elite in goodness servants of God existing.
4) The servants in 4, are most fit for leadership and guiding humanity, and would receive exalted wisdom.
5) They would guide humanity and share their wisdom to their best of their capacity.
6) These servants are be found in religion.
7) The way God uses such servants to guide humanity has an exalted wisdom and praise.
8) That exalted wisdom is uniquely found in the Quran/Islam or religions that are offshoots of the Quran.


I understand Atheists aren't going to accept 1, but if you do accept it, then 2 and 3 is easily accepted. And 4 is easily accepted in light of that. 5 is accepted by the nature of goodness in helping others. 6 is something that is observable, sure lower wisdom I don't deny Deists can have and share, but the exalted higher wisdom and complete guidance to God's praise and goodness and path to his nearness, is not to be found in their path. 7 has been debated,  God supporting these people with proofs (miracles) and verifying the truth with his exalted words, is logical and I discussed that.

As for 8, this is far as I know of religions. I don't see purity and exalted nature in Prophets in the Bible because they do sins none of us would do. Other religions may have chosen ones, but don't emphasize on sticking to them and clinging to them for guidance as does Islam and Quran.  Emphasizing on recognizing their holy station without going to extremes of associating in God's Worship, is also important. Some people center around exalted servants but don't follow them to follow God but worship them aside from God. Instead of being a means to God, they become an obstruct to God, and means of furthering away from him.

Thirdly, I didn't mention this, but the false oppressive authority that keeps people away from God and his path, is known as "the Taghut". No other holy book I am aware rejects the authority of the Taghut and replaces it with the Mastership of God. There is no book that awakens people to the false authority and the true authority, and awakens humanity against the leaders of misguidance as does the Quran.

While the affairs of the people is to be run by those chosen by the people who have knowledge of God's commands and those they appoint, the only ones to have the authority of God such as they cannot be rejected, replaced, ignored or others obeyed in their place, are the appointed Leaders by God who are free of injustice through out their lives. 

There is no other book then emphasizes to awaken to the false nature of the misguiding leaders who cause mischief in the land and replaced it with following God and his chosen ones, then the Quran. 

I don't think it's fair to say my argument is merely seeing beauty and goodness in stories.

(April 4, 2015 at 12:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 1) Praise being a proof to God's greatness and his favors, and even his existence.
2) Exalted wisdom existing.
3) Super elite in goodness servants of God existing.
4) The servants in 4, are most fit for leadership and guiding humanity, and would receive exalted wisdom.
5) They would guide humanity and share their wisdom to their best of their capacity.
6) These servants are be found in religion.
7) The way God uses such servants to guide humanity has an exalted wisdom and praise.
8) That exalted wisdom is uniquely found in the Quran/Islam or religions that are offshoots of the Quran.

1. You have to prove he exists with empirical evidence. Why is god great, why is god not evil?
2.  You don't need to be smart to be wise. How is god wise? again prove god exists. 
3.   really now? Last time i checked if someone speaks out against Islam said person head would be on a pike. 
4. Again no if they are supposed great leaders for humanity why is it there is other religions for the most part coexisting peacefully except the Abrahamic ones. 
5. Again no
6. Religions for the most part even this one is not truthful 
7. god when ever he guides his servants they end up killing people for the most part. 
8. Again islam is a fairly new Abrahamic religion. christianity, judaism are both older. 

(April 4, 2015 at 1:09 pm)dyresand Wrote: 1. You have to prove he exists with empirical evidence. Why is god great, why is god not evil?

Empirical evidence cannot prove something spiritual and unseen. Although there is empirical evidence in a way by the nature of how we receive praise value by doing praiseworthy deeds, and this is proof of a soul and one who takes the soul into account and makes it inherit it's actions. The blessings received from goodness is also a proof of God and his light and his lordship on humanity. We all believe people can become more good or more evil by their actions. But you have to reflect. The nature of praise and morality is such that it has an eternal basis and in a way is in itself part eternal. This all empirical evidence but it takes the eyes of the soul to see. But we all see this. So it takes reflection of what we acknowledge and see. The nature of blessings is they come from the heavenly realms and descend upon us. The ultimate origin is from the highest realm which is God. The nature of blessings is observable by the heart. Love itself is a sacred thing, that has origin in higher reality. All this observable, but, if we want to say "physical evidence only", then that is illogical. God himself is not a physical being, but a spiritual being, and our link to him and our knowledge of him, is a spiritual thing.

Quote:2.  You don't need to be smart to be wise. How is god wise? again prove god exists. 

Understanding and wisdom you don't need to have a high IQ I agree. But this is irrelevant. The question is not why God is Wise. The question is why is wisdom praiseworthy and great. Why is it in a honor. And for that, you will know it's because God is Wise.

Quote:3.   really now? Last time i checked if someone speaks out against Islam said person head would be on a pike. 

This is contradicted by clear verses of Quran. This is part of what Satanic forces have cast upon the religion distorting it, and people ignoring clear proofs from God both proven by reason and verified by the light in the Quran in clear verses forbidding such a thing. 

Quote:4. Again no if they are supposed great leaders for humanity why is it there is other religions for the most part coexisting peacefully except the Abrahamic ones. 

This due to our disobedience to God's guidance and clear verses, not to his teachings. The fault is with the people, and not with God and his guidance.

Quote:7. god when ever he guides his servants they end up killing people for the most part. 

You'll have to elaborate on that.  I think when God guides his servants, they have honor to defend themselves against oppressors but would never murder innocents.

Quote:8. Again islam is a fairly new Abrahamic religion. christianity, judaism are both older. 

What's your point?

7. Islam has the same god in christianity and judaism. gods original people and canaanites he swapped sides when he done so he ordered his new people to kill them.

8. Its nothing new its just rebranded christianity except muhammed** is the chosen one not jesus.

4. It's still not excuse for kill people. Killing people is bad.

3. Then they really need to re read over their own material now don't they if they do such violent acts.

2. why is god not wise.... Well for one he knows the past future and present he could have done things differently instead of setting us up to fail.

1. Again science can explain the physical world and the universe we live in. god would be breaking laws taking our "souls" out of the universe violating energy conservation.
Also nature isn't really good to explain god either where ever there is water in the universe there is life it may not be advance it might be bacteria or something else. Life is still life no matter how complex or simplistic. If we ever find bacteria or even complex life the abrahamic religions including Islam is going to be in very deep trouble with its followers going to question it.

(April 4, 2015 at 12:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There is the folowing parts to this argument.

1) Praise being a proof to God's greatness and his favors, and even his existence.
2) Exalted wisdom existing.
3) Super elite in goodness servants of God existing.
4) The servants in 4, are most fit for leadership and guiding humanity, and would receive exalted wisdom.
5) They would guide humanity and share their wisdom to their best of their capacity.
6) These servants are be found in religion.
7) The way God uses such servants to guide humanity has an exalted wisdom and praise.
8) That exalted wisdom is uniquely found in the Quran/Islam or religions that are offshoots of the Quran.

I'm not sure what you expect me to do with any of that, it's not an argument, nothing follows,  I don't believe your faith claims- and you've failed to demonstrate that they are true....you've failed to even begin at this first step.  You have no more reason than I to accept any of those claims.

  : shrugs :

The rest is "my book is more special than all other books".  Sorry, I disagree as a reader of books........ and I still don't believe your faith claims (including that your favorite book is unique)- but you're certainly entitled to love whichever stories you wish.  I can understand the experience.  Personally, I don't have to believe in wizards to understand the King Arthur story, nor is my approval of any of the ideals therein, or the beauty and goodness of the story -as I see it...... proof that wizards exist.  

I think that my summary of your "argument" for Islam is as fair and accurate as it was the first time I posted it.  I think that your response drives it home even harder than I could have.   You disagree, so you should be familiar with the concept of disagreeing about matters of opinion - and yet here we are, with you insisting that your opinions about super elite exalted wisdom books (sue me) be taken as fact, or as the consequences of an argument which you have not and can not provide?

It just seems to me like a list of things you like about your religion. But to convince a sceptic, you need evidence and arguments that are independent of any presupposition of the truth of any of it. Otherwise, all we can say is it's convincing to you obviously but not to us.

I think the main problem you guys have is that you don't accept praise as a proof of God's greatness and a proof of his divine favors.

I think if you accept that, then all to the point of the Quranic wisdom can be accepted.

As for the uniqueness of the Quranic wisdom and it's exalted nature, that again has to be perceived but I think if we accept all that to that point, it's manifest as well.

Peace 

That's not -our- problem..Mystic...that's your problem.  You do understand that, right?  You've given me no reason to accept any of that.  You may be convinced...but you are unconvincing. Even if I did..Islam wouldn't follow..here again you make a declaration of faith with no explanation as to why I should accept the statement as true.

-and then, for shits and giggle, if I did accept it, and for some non-reason I decided that islamic "wisdom" was true...why would it matter, would I become a Muslim?

Unlikely. Why should I? I can read your book from here and pick out the parts I like and the parts I don't.

If you don't discuss the particular problem you have, then it's not a discussion. If you just generally say I've proven nothing, then that's not a discussion.