(April 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Where does it say in the quran that shirk is only a sin that won't be forgiven if people know better?

There are verses that talk about mustafeen saying perhaps God will forgive them and God is forgiving merciful. The Mustafaen were the polytheists who weren't able to migrate and come to the message and it's proof. They weren't aware of the truth to deny it nor aware of the truth to accept it. 

Tabatabai in his tafsir states:

A man is oblivious of the established truth of the religion and its tenets, and his thoughts have not led him to it, but at the same time he has no enmity towards truth, is not averse to it at all; if he knew the reality he would have readily accepted it; but the truth has remained hidden from him because of some factors [and, therefore, he does not know it].

This explanation is based on the generality of the verse which shows that the given cause is unrestricted [and covers cases of unavoidable ignorance and oblivion]



We have a hadith:

Zurarah says: "I asked Abu Ja'far (a.s.) about al-mustad'af = weak, weakened). He said: 'He is the one who does not have a means to disbelief (that he may disbelieve), nor does he find a way to belief; he is unable to believe and unable to reject (the belief); among them are the children as well as those men and women whose understanding is like that of the children; they are freed from responsibility'." (al-Kafi)


More from tafsir Al-Mizan:


Sulayman has narrated from as-Sadiq (a.s.) that he said about this verse: "0 Sulayman! In these weak ones there are those who have thicker necks than yours. Weak are the people who fast and pray, keep their stomachs and genitals away [from forbidden things]; they do not believe that the right is with our adversaries; they are holding the tree's branches; these are that Allah may pardon them if they keep the hold of the tree's branches and know those. Then if Allah pardons them it will be by His mercy, and if He punishes them it will be because of their error." (Ma'ani'l-akhbar)

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(April 5, 2015 at 1:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: We talking the sky...sky.  Big blue thing over my head, or is that metaphor for metaphysical reality as well?  Like how the greek gods live on Mt. Olympus?

Metaphysical reality. Not the blue sky. 

This is further explained that God has blessed it for the worlds to visit. It's not just for Mohammad, but for us to make the journey their spiritually.

There are verses talking about "ladder to the sky" "opening to the earth", "if they ascended the sky...".

The word sky is heaven too. You can translate it as heaven.

(April 5, 2015 at 11:06 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The Buraq is found in hadiths, and it's nature is unknown - I never came across any stating it is a horse with wings. Also, I believe it is a metaphysical thing, as stated in Du'a Nudba, it states God ascended his spirit to the heavens...I think there are spiritual realms, and the access to them is not simply a matter of physical distance, but there is a spiritual reality to them.

I was always the opinion that the Buraq is a metaphysical reality of the desire of Mohammad. It takes him to the higher places of proximity to God.

The Egyptians believed in spirits too, yet you don't believe in Horus or Isis or Osirus.

More hadiths:

(April 5, 2015 at 1:43 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: More hadiths:

'Ali (a.s.) said: "The name of weakness is not used for him to whom the proof has reached, and his ears heard it and his heart understood it." (Nahju'l-balaghah)

And? Jews quote the Torah and Talmud, Christians quote the bible, Buddhists quote Buddha, Hindus quote the Vedas. So?

All this proves is you can quote a book. 

Just checking....thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:This is further explained that God has blessed it for the worlds to visit. It's not just for Mohammad, but for us to make the journey their spiritually.

There are verses talking about "ladder to the sky" "opening to the earth", "if they ascended the sky...".

The word sky is heaven too. You can translate it as heaven.

A metaphysical ladder...I presume.  Like the giant beanpole jack climbed.  How unique, how exalted.

Rhythm, the Quran is full of parables. For example, some Muslims try to do use science to talk about mountains being stabilizers. But the name of Aaron means "Exalted Mountain" and hadiths talk these being the Imams. Like wise, there is a hidden meaning to the day and night, with the descent of light and ascension unveiling of light.

Lamps in the sky is also not referring to physical stars, but is referring to a metaphysical reality. The Quran is a book about spiritual journey to God.

In the 2nd chapter in the beginning, God says he is not ashamed of giving any parable, of a gnat or what is above that. He gives also sorts of parables. It says it's self "And we given in this Quran from all types of parables..."

Earth and sky is not literal in most places, and the 6 days creation is referring to something else, and days refers to something else. Imam Khomeini talked about this in forty hadiths but most people are unaware of the parables in the Quran.

A hidden metaphysical meaning, but not so hidden, it would seem.  You figured it out.  I get it though, I really do, it's a book about a spiritual journey to a god, full of parables.  Like all of the others.  I have a short list of favorites in the genre myself...we could compare our book club recommendations?

Which verses talk about the mustafeen and say they might be forgiven for shirk?

So, if I understand right, any parts which are obviously wrong or undesirable are metaphors or metaphysical stuff.

It's a shame somebody didn't tell the writers of all the embarrassing (for Muslims) hadiths that the verses were meant to be parables really.