I do see some correlation between unhappy uptight Christians and really, really, really, fundamentalist Christians.  But I also see some very socially connected crazy happy fundamentalists. I see some correlation between unhappy uptight atheists and atheists in really, really, really, fundamentalist Christian households.   There are also a few other Christians who seem to make themselves guilty and unhappy with religion.   Other than that, religion mostly doesn't seem to have that much to do with honestly, self honesty, happiness, intelligence, reliability, or income. I'd like to say, free yourself of religion and all will be wonderful, but all I can really say is that you'll have your Sundays free and you won't have to worry about silliness's like thinking masturbation is a sin, or that your gay child can't go to heaven.

I'm not keen on broad-brushing. I know plenty of Ts who are stand-up folks, and plenty of atheists who are shitbags.

(August 20, 2014 at 2:36 am)PhiloTech Wrote:

(August 20, 2014 at 2:29 am)Michael Wrote: I'm smiling at the idea that people like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, G.K.Chesterton, George Whitfield, William Booth, John Wycliffe, William Wilberforce, Arthur Eddington, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, John Wesley and Elizabeth Fry lacked character.

Never said religion meant one lacked character. None of these people lived in an atheistic age.

(See bold)
All those people lived into the twentieth century. Desmond Tutu is still alive. So...
What the fuck are you talking about?
And "going on hunches" is what people "compelled by faith" do. So, maybe you should stop doing that.

(August 20, 2014 at 2:36 am)PhiloTech Wrote:

(August 20, 2014 at 2:29 am)Michael Wrote: I'm smiling at the idea that people like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, G.K.Chesterton, George Whitfield, William Booth, John Wycliffe, William Wilberforce, Arthur Eddington, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, John Wesley and Elizabeth Fry lacked character.

Never said religion meant one lacked character. None of these people lived in an atheistic age.

But must I provide a list of the religious nuts that don't have character?

No, you must present research that at least correlates religious belief and bad character. Your personal observations, which may result from confirmation bias, should mean nothing to most atheists here, who claim to believe claims only on scientific evidence.

In my experience, I have noticed a negative correlation between how strongly religious someone is and how nice they are.

Not usually. I wonder though, how lifelong fundie theists learn how to properly think about right or wrong when they get all these nonsense rules spoonfed. I had before talked about theistic morality as a usually unneeded crutch that hinders the training of the ethical muscle. As a consequence of this, nuanced empathy driven decisions about morality are - in extremists -supplanted by blunt and overly simple recipes. However, most non superbigot-level-insane christians mostly still think about right and wrong actions just like nonbelievers, just with weird scriptural inspirations and justifications added and, for some denominations, vague threats of hell if they mess it up. They may hold individual views you might find repulsive, but I would not attest the majority of them a lack of character.

I don't think the case can be made that religiosity per se - even the more intense varieties - leads to character flaws.  A better, stronger case could be made that passionate, irrational devotion to an idea or a cause can lead to having a deeply flawed character (ref. the thread regarding PZ Myers).

As Parkers Tan intimated, I've known deeply religious people whom I trust and whose company I enjoy, and I've know atheists I wouldn't have in my house.

Boru

If there is a genuine correlation, it could just as easily be that people with serious character flaws are drawn to religion in the first place.

But really, the more religious someone is, the more they believe in their doctrines (for the big religions anyway) the more they must think I'm unworthy and am going to be punished just for "refusing to believe" while giving me no good reason that I should believe.

(April 18, 2015 at 5:37 am)robvalue Wrote: If there is a genuine correlation, it could just as easily be that people with serious character flaws are drawn to religion in the first place.

But really, the more religious someone is, the more they believe in their doctrines (for the big religions anyway) the more they must think I'm unworthy and am going to be punished just for "refusing to believe" while giving me no good reason that I should believe.

Er, no, I don't think you'll be punished just for "refusing to believe." You'll be punished for all your sins. As James notes, the demons believe in the existence of God. They'll still be punished.

@Alpha male

Denying the holy spirit is traditionally perceived as a deadly sin.