(May 15, 2015 at 5:23 pm)robvalue Wrote: Do you think that is a bit of a low bar? The sequel to a book has something matching what the original book said, therefor all the supernatural claims in both books are true? Do you know how many other books this could be said about? Like, Lord of the Rings?

Lord of the Rings is true...you must fall down and worship our Lord Sauron or you will be sent to the underworld to be tortured by the Orcs and Goblins for eternity.

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(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: How do we decide that the Nazis were wrong to haul the Jews away and kill millions of them?

I'm just saying, I don't need to believe in fairy tales to know that killing millions of people is wrong.

Really, if you need to consult an ancient book to tell you what Hitler did was "wrong", by any human standard, there is a problem.

While you're at it, read about all the genocide God ordered and tell me the difference.

Morality isn't as hard as a lot of theists try and make it. The opinion of a crusty old man in the sky is of no relevance to anything.

There is no objective "right" and "wrong", there is us. Our morality comes from us. That's why you most likely ignore loads of the bible, because you know it is wrong.

Just because something isn't perfect, that does not make it worthless. The world is not black and white.

(May 15, 2015 at 4:06 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

Quote:Freedom4me, the forum will automatically add quote tags for you if you hit "reply" or "quote," you seem to be adding your own every time, which is complicating the problem.

I'll have a try using a different browser.  I've been using the "reply" button and it isn't inserting any quote tags.  

(May 15, 2015 at 5:36 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: I'll have a try using a different browser.  I've been using the "reply" button and it isn't inserting any quote tags.  

You're seeing the text in MyCode, which is auto-formatted. If you click the button on the far left on the second row in the editor (View Source), it'll show the source code. Alternatively, you can hit Ctrl+Shift+S.

If you're not changing the text of the quote at all (i.e. breaking it up) you can just leave it as is and type underneath it.

(May 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(May 15, 2015 at 4:11 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: But are individual rights assigned arbitrarily?  If that is how it works, then how and why would the founders of our nation (or any nation) go about deciding on the way to form a "more just" society for all the citizens in the country?  There has to be some standard for determining what is more/less just before we can "assign" individual rights.  The founders of the U.S. believed that our basic individual rights are intrinsic to our humanity.  No one can legitimately deprive us our rights without due process.

No, they are assigned through collective human experience. Don't like having a monarchy decide your religion for you? Let's move somewhere else and take the good things we learned from that government and apply some new ones.

The founders of the U.S. believed that black people were a lesser species, and decided that a black man counted as only 3/5 of a person. What does that say about your idea of 'intrinsic human value?'

The problem isn't in the idea that all human beings have certain inherent rights as human beings, in this case the problem was with those who wanted to oppress and enslave other human beings...merely on the basis of race.  If there is no God, how would we have determined that race-based slavery was wrong?

(May 15, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Freedom4me Wrote:

(May 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: No, they are assigned through collective human experience. Don't like having a monarchy decide your religion for you? Let's move somewhere else and take the good things we learned from that government and apply some new ones.

The founders of the U.S. believed that black people were a lesser species, and decided that a black man counted as only 3/5 of a person. What does that say about your idea of 'intrinsic human value?'

The problem isn't in the idea that all human beings have certain inherent rights as human beings, in this case the problem was with those who wanted to oppress and enslave other human beings...merely on the basis of race.  If there is no God, how would we have determined that race-based slavery was wrong?

Morality.

(May 15, 2015 at 4:20 pm)Iroscato Wrote: The road to establishing universal human rights (or at least, partially universal in some countries) has been long and tortuous. Please do not try and jump in and claim them as the work of an imaginary cloud man, for you insult the struggles of many humans to establish them.
http://www.humanrights.com/what-are-huma...inder.html

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Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Thanks!

(May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: Without God, it seems to me that we are left to decide what is just or unjust by majority opinion.

I also have to point out the flaw in this statement. Keep in mind that ethics and morality existed long before your God did. Take for example Hammurabi's Code, which was a major form of ethics and law that existed in the Babylonian Empire. The Babylonian Empire existed long before Christianity became a dominant religion. So please refrain from atrributing my morals to your flying cloud daddy.

We did. We improved. We realized slavery was unjust. God has nothing to do with it, in fact the bible endorses slavery.

God job we don't do what it says huh?

We decide laws, we don't necessarily decide morality. Everyone has their own morality. They aren't the same thing.

You seem to want to just assume God is necessary for stuff. I don't know why. God is a red herring, a non-answer to any question. There is also the problem that biblical morality is bullshit.

(May 15, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Freedom4me Wrote:

(May 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: No, they are assigned through collective human experience. Don't like having a monarchy decide your religion for you? Let's move somewhere else and take the good things we learned from that government and apply some new ones.

The founders of the U.S. believed that black people were a lesser species, and decided that a black man counted as only 3/5 of a person. What does that say about your idea of 'intrinsic human value?'

The problem isn't in the idea that all human beings have certain inherent rights as human beings, in this case the problem was with those who wanted to oppress and enslave other human beings...merely on the basis of race.  If there is no God, how would we have determined that race-based slavery was wrong?

Ok, now you owe me a new keyboard.  You claim there is a god and that the Bible is his word.  Where in the Bible do you get the idea that slavery is wrong? 

Are you yanking our chains?