(June 4, 2015 at 2:58 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: @Secular Elf did you have a relationship with Jesus?
@Rob that was a weird video... God is a just judge and will judge our actions. He will separate those who follow him from those who haven't. He will reward those who have been faithful and punish those who have rejected him. We are God's servant wither you like it or not and we are responsible for the information He has revealed to us. We will all be judge for what we have done or not done on this earth.

Yeah. See, the thing is, I don't believe that is true. Sorry He's not revealed anything to me. He's welcome to try again. Until then, I'll care about the people and animals around me as a priority, and not worry about the feelings of something I don't even know exists. You can point to anything and say it is god trying to communicate with me, but he's going to have to be a bit more direct. If it's not too much trouble of course.

Nothing personal, but I don't think any human, or any book, has the authority to speak for god, if he exists. He should handle it himself. Otherwise I can't possibly know if it's really a message from him or something someone just imagined or made up.

I agree with your first statement about justice, I know how I came to that conclusion but how do you? How have you formed you idea of what justice is and why is it correct?
Chad Why do you think obedience to God is mindless? Why do you think wither someone is obedient to God or not can't be proven?
Just because someone tries to assert power over God doesn't mean that the could become more powerful than God.

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Rob God is not subject to you, you are subject to God and whatever way he speaks to you should be good enough. I am positive that one day you will not longer believe the lie that He doesn't exist.

There are people who can look at what Yahweh has supposedly done, and say they must be good because he did it. What reason is there to obey him, other than the fact that he's more powerful than us? Surely the fact that he's most powerful isn't by itsself a good reason to obey, especially given that he doesn't seem to have our best interests at heart.

My idea of justice comes from my life experiences, the people around me, and so forth. One of the simplest forms of justice is asking yourself if you would mind if something happened to you. If you offend me, is it ok if I set you on fire? Probably not. I set my son on fire, then go to court and tell the judge that I gave the person a choice. Serve me, or I will kill them. He disobeyed me, so I killed him. I brought him into this world, and I took him out. What court would hear that, and let me go free?

Apparently a theocratic court, given the honor killings that go on in some places. Those are often the places where equal rights is not a thing, for some reason.

(June 6, 2015 at 2:33 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: Rob God is not subject to you, you are subject to God and whatever way he speaks to you should be good enough. I am positive that one day you will not longer believe the lie that He doesn't exist.

LOL...now, for a translation.

"AHEM.  ROB!  Grovel, and then lock your step.*"

:clears throat:

How did I do?

*or else™

I think that's spot on

Yeah. Whatever way he speaks to me would be good enough. Other people speaking, and claiming to carry messages from him, is not good enough. Crummy old books full of garbage are not good enough. If he gave me this brain, he should expect me to use it.

He knows where to find me, if he can get down from his lofty perch and come play in the mud.

Next time you talk to him, tell him to come see me properly, send me a message I can't misinterpret. He should be capable of that, no? Otherwise my ability to deny things is greater than God. Wow, I'm pretty powerful in that case.

So far all I have is hot air from people all claiming to hold his message, who can't even agree on what the message is. So no thanks.

I got a question though.

If you were born in a Muslim country, then much more likely than not you'd be a Muslim instead of a Christian, telling me a completely different set of "truths".

Now how can that be? How the can the truth depend on where you are born? Why does god tell people different things in different countries? This sounds much more like there are several gods to me, with limited ranges of influence. If it's all the same God and just misunderstandings, why is God letting people kill each other over it instead of sorting it out? He sounds kind of a dick.

Also, I'm thinking of a four figure number. Please ask God to tell you what it is. If he does, I'll be impressed.

(May 28, 2015 at 6:51 pm)Secular Elf Wrote: Very good discussion here.  Very interesting.  I have noticed that our dear Christian friends keep beating a dead horse.

Having been a Christian myself once, I am quite familiar with the arguments the theists are presenting.  I am just not that impressed with them.

The reasons why revolve around facts and knowledge.  I have since my slow long de-conversion learned some things and my knowledge base has expanded.

What I care about are facts, not necessarily what the Christians claim is "THE TRUTH."  Truth is a dime a dozen.  Facts stick around and are solid.

The history of Christianity, of which I have familiarized myself with, is full of interesting facts:

1.  The Torah (Old Testament), a product of First Temple Judaism and the Babylonian Exile, was influenced by Sumerian and West Semitic culture.  Clues from the Torah and from recent archaeological and DNA studies indicate that the Hebrews and Canaanites were from the same root stock of people and culture.  The Hebrews were originally polytheists or at least henotheists.  Monotheism evolved in Israel/Palestine with the ever growing power and influence of the priests of Yahweh (this was the second independent evolution of monotheism, the first was in Egypt ca. two centuries earlier by the Pharaoh Akhenaton, before the "Conquest of Canaan" ).  It was during the Babylonian Exile period that Jews adopted and adapted certain myths from the Assyro-Babylonian religion and weaved them into their own (Adam, Eve, and Trees story, the Great Flood story, the confounding of one
language into many story, Nimrod is a play on words of Enmerkar, the King of Kish--all have their origins in the original Sumerian mythology). The Hellenistic Culture also had its
influence on the Jewish Culture of the 1st Century BCE and 1st Century CE.

2.  The Early Christians, first and foremost before the Gentile influx into the religion, were Jews, thus, Christianity in its very beginnings was just another sect of Judaism, which grew
out of Second Temple Judaism.  Second Temple Judaism during the 1st Century CE was influenced not only by its direct ancestor of First Temple Judaism, but also by the pagan
cultures of the Greeks and Egyptians.

3.  The earliest Christians were not monolithic.  From its very beginning there were many groups that evolved over the first 100 years of its existence, all had variations in belief.  The
named groups include Nazarenes, Ebionites, Elkasites, Nicolaitans, Naasenes, Ophites, Carpocratians, etc., etc.

4.  Early on there were three different varieties of the sect of the followers of Yeshua ben Yusef: Elkasites, Ebionites, and Nazarenes.

5. The Christology (nature of Jesus) was divided into several varieties, depending on which Early Christian group you were talking about: Jesus as a Davidic Messiah, or as a reincarnated being, or as a Messiah who was not divine (all of which were among the Jewish Christians); or even more complicated among the Gentile Christians: Gnosticism (the material world is bad, created by an evil god [the demiurge] of the Hebrew Bible, and that Jesus was the Savior spirit sent from the true god of light to liberate the souls trapped there through secret teachings); Adoptionism held that Jesus was born human and became divine only at his baptism when God adopted him; Docetism held that Jesus was pure spirit and did not have a body, his appearance in human form was thus an illusion and Jesus could not physically die.  Pauline Christology held that Jesus was both divine and human at the same time.  This Pauline Christology became the view of the Proto-orthodox Christians, who held other opinions of Christ's nature as heresy, later became the predominant theological view among Orthodox Christianity through both argument and force of arms.

6.  The Nazarenes believed that Jesus was the Messiah that all Jews had been looking for.  In the Jewish context, a messiah (Hebrew: mashiach, “anointed one”) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.  He was never considered by Jews to be God or a pre-existent divine being or Son of God.  In its native Jewish context, the messiah was meant to be a future Jewish king from the royal Davidic line, who will be anointed with holy anointing oil, to be the king of God’s kingdom and rule the Jewish people during a Messianic Age.  Belief in the eventual coming of a future messiah is a fundamental part of Judaism even today.  

7.  The Elkasites believed that Jesus was a simple prophet who had been born before many times and would be born again frequently in the future.  This belief in reincarnation indicates that the Elkasites were evolving towards a Gnostic direction.

8. The Ebionites regarded Jesus as the Messiah but did not consider him divine.  They also zealously followed the Law of Moses and revered Jerusalem as the holiest city.  They restricted table fellowship only to Gentiles who converted to Judaism.

9.  Christianity began splitting away from Second Temple Judaism around 70 CE and was completely a new religion by 135 CE, all the while Second Temple Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism.  The split was due to continuing tensions between traditional Judaism and Greco-Roman Culture as well as the Roman-Jewish conflicts (three wars) of the eastern Roman provinces.

10. In 144 CE Marcion, the founder of a somewhat gnostic Christianity known as Marcionism, was the first Christian to formulate a canon of scripture, called by the followers of Marcion the Gospel of the Lord.  Today it is known as the Gospel of Marcion. It initiated the formation of the New Testament.  Marcionism proved to be a great rival of the Proto-orthodox Christianity of Rome, which had excommunicated Marcion and declared his brand of Christianity heresy.

11. As Christianity continued to be spread it also continued to be more diverse.  In the Roman province of Phrygia in Asia Minor Montanism sprung up.  A charismatic prophetic movement of Christians led by Montanus and his associates Priscilla and Maximilla, it was well noted for its emotionalism.  Called the New Prophecy, it was declared heresy in 177 by the Proto-orthodox Christians.

12. Between 150 to 160 the school of Gnostic Christianity called Valentinianism was founded by its namesake, Valentinian.  He wrote The Gospel of the Truth.  After his death Valentinianism became a major movemnt that seriously challenged Proto-orthodox Christianity.  Valentinian Christology involved a godhead that was divided into three parts.  This trinitarian concept is recognized by modern scholarship to be influenced by ancient Egyptian religious thought, as Valentinian was an Egyptian from Phrebonis who taught in Alexandria.

13. During the Crisis of the Third Century (235-284 CE) Christianity underwent stress through being persecuted, which led to internal strife.  The Decian Pesecution of 250-251 resulted in Christians criticizing and accusing other Christians, mostly clerics, who gave in to imperial demands of citizenship.  These were called lapsi, “those who have lapsed/fallen away.”  This caused a rival papacy (anti-pope) and two schisms within the Church.  The anti-pope was Novatian, who founded Novatianism.  The Novatianists took a hard position against the lapsi when the Roman See sought reconciliation.  Novatianism was considered by the Roman Church to be heresy.

14. In 301 Armenia became the first nation-state to adopt Christianity as its official religion during the reign of King Tiridates III the Great.  A Christian community had been estabished there since the 1st Century CE but had largely reained a minority religion amidst the native pagan Armenians.  Gregory the Iluminator was the missionary who convinced Tiridates to convert to Chritianity.  Thereafter the King adopted a policy of aggressive conversion of his people, which resulted in a civil war that ended in his victory and the foundation of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

15. As a religion Christianity is like any other human institution in that it is subject to the same environmental forces that shape it and the same perspectives that study it.  Christianity in its very beginnings was a Jewish sect, and had inherited some qualities it still shares with Judaism, mainly monotheism.  As it gained more converts from the Gentile populations, it was also influenced by its surrounding cultural environment.  Christian beliefs were shaped, either through direct borrowing or indirectly influenced by other pagan religious ideology and mythology.  Directly from Zorastrianism or indirectly from the Essenes came the dualistic notion of the cosmic struggle of good and evil.  The idea of Satan had been changed in its native Judaic environment as the right-hand angel of Yahweh to the Christian enemy of God.  The idea of an immortal soul evolved first in Judaism as well as being influenced by Greek Platonism.  The finality of death and the tarrying of the shades of the dead in an underworld Judaism shared with Assyro-Babylonian mythology.  The Greek ideas of Hades as both a god and a place for all the dead as well as the myth of the imprisonment of the Titans in Tartarus and the Egyptian lake of fire of the underworld translated into the Christian idea of Hell.  Nearly all religions have a class of spirit beings of some sort, so Judaism and Christianity have their angels.  Depictions of angels as winged humanoids did not appear in Christian art until the 4th Century, but ideas of winged spirit beings from the iconography of Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and Assyrians no doubt had their influence.  And ideas of the Apocalypse evolved from Hellenistic Judaism.

You stated that what you care about are facts, so why are you presenting the above as facts. You are presenting a bunch of "facts" that in no way disprove orthodox christianity. The earliest christians were not monolithic? What other gods did they worship? What does christianity starting out as a Jewish sect have to do with whether or not it's true? Of course it was a Jewish sect. The whole story of the bible is based on the promise that the messiah would come to the Jews, What else would the first christians be? Why would novatianism cause you to leave christianity? Christianity is not true because some christians gave in to the demandsd of the government? I like how how you've thrown out all this extraneous information and then drawn these crazy conclusions.

What else would the first christians be?  "Paul" if you'll recall......was the apostle to the gentiles.  They went out of house because the inhouse crowd wasn't buying their bullshit Lek.  They continue to await the messiah. The answer to your question "who else would the first christians have been?"-is, in truth, just about anybody -except- jews. The early christing business wasn't picky, the jews were. Judaism isn;t really all that well represented in christianity. That it's a jewish offshoot sect is more a convention of the literary lineage of god claims, than of the origins of their contents or the geneology of it's early adherents.

The question can be framed further back, of course....who were the first jews? As it so happens there is a similarity between the first jews and the first christians. A similarity of situation, not faith, mind you. We find that they were not a monolith(and still aren't) in precisely the same way as we find that christians were not a monolith at their "coming out"(....and still aren't). I don;t know why we would expect to find anything else in an area coming to, but not yet steeped in, a revelatory religion. There will always have been some point in time where the demographics are fractured, that point before the varying sects homogenize and their dissimilar creeds are calcified as doctrine.

I think that you're going to have to give up the story that your faith -has told you- about it;s formation and come back to reality, before you can call the comments of others crazy, before you can impugn the character of their conclusions or facts.

(June 8, 2015 at 8:11 am)Rhythm Wrote: What else would the first christians be?  "Paul" if you'll recall......was the apostle to the gentiles.  They went out of house because the inhouse crowd wasn't buying their bullshit Lek.  They continue to await the messiah.  The answer to your question "who else would the first christians have been?"-is, in truth, just about anybody -except- jews.  The early christing business wasn't picky, the jews were.  Judaism isn;t really all that well represented in christianity.  That it's a jewish offshoot sect is more a convention of the literary lineage of god claims, than of the origins of their contents or the geneology of it's early adherents.

While it is true that the majority of Jews never accepted christianity, the first christians were definitely Jews. The twelve apostles were all Jews, as well as the three thousand converts on Pentecost day. It was agreed that Paul would go to the gentiles and the other apostles would remain with the Jews.

Quote:The question can be framed further back, of course....who were the first jews?  As it so happens there is a similarity between the first jews and the first christians.  A similarity of situation, not faith, mind you.  We find that they were not a monolith(and still aren't) in precisely the same way as we find that christians were not a monolith at their "coming out"(....and still aren't).   I don;t know why we would expect to find anything else in an area coming to, but not yet steeped in, a revelatory religion.  There will always have been some point in time where the demographics are fractured, that point before the varying sects homogenize and their dissimilar creeds are calcified as doctrine.

The bible story doesn't rely on where the Jews came from genetically or culturally. Jesus was a descendant of Abraham. What bothers me is when people throw out a bunch of stuff that may be true in itself, but then try to use it to discredit christianity, when it's not related. It's like saying that the Book of Revelation is based on other Jewish writings because it's written in apocalyptic style. While it's true that this style of literature was popular at the time, it doesn't follow that Revelation was based on another Jewish story. Show me the story that it's based on and how it relates. Don't just make statements without showing the connections to the point you're trying to make.

Quote:I think that you're going to have to give up the story that your faith -has told you- about it;s formation and come back to reality, before you can call the comments of others crazy, before you can impugn the character of their conclusions or facts.

First, I apologize for calling the statements "crazy'. I could have used a better word. It is also true that the faith as it is today has gone through a formation process. I doubt that the earliest christians had a concept of the Trinity, for instance. The were also groups such as the gnostics, as well as disagreement over doctrinal issues. To this day, there are still disagreements and heretical groups. You could say that you don't accept orthodox christianity because of this, but it doesn't actually invalidate christianity. It's akin to saying atheists should accept christianity because they can't prove there is no God. It doesn't support the premise.

Quote:While it is true that the majority of Jews never accepted christianity, the first christians were definitely Jews.  The twelve apostles were all Jews, as well as the three thousand converts on Pentecost day.  It was agreed that Paul would go to the gentiles and the other apostles would remain with the Jews.

LOL, sure they were Lek, sure they were.  I think that before you tell us what the twelves apostles were, you should demonstrate that they -were- anything at all.  Three thousand converts you say?  Dispatches from the front?  You mean, agreed upon in the story...like when Nancy Drew and her friends agree to a plan?

Quote:The bible story doesn't rely on where the Jews came from genetically or culturally.  Jesus was a descendant of Abraham.  What bothers me is when people throw out a bunch of stuff that may be true in itself, but then try to use it to discredit christianity, when it's not related.  It's like saying that the Book of Revelation is based on other Jewish writings because it's written in apocalyptic style.  While it's true that this style of literature was popular at the time, it doesn't follow that Revelation was based on another Jewish story.  Show me the story that it's based on and how it relates.  Don't just make statements without showing the connections to the point you're trying to make.

No one needs to waste any effort discrediting christianity, christianity has that handled all by itself.  The jesus narrative is a "descendant" of the abraham narrative.  Neither are factual.  

Quote:First, I apologize for calling the statements "crazy'.  I could have used a better word.  It is also true that the faith as it is today has gone through a formation process.  I doubt that the earliest christians had a  concept of the Trinity, for instance.  The were also groups such as the gnostics, as well as disagreement over doctrinal issues.  To this day, there are still disagreements and heretical groups.  You could say that you don't accept orthodox christianity because of this, but it doesn't actually invalidate christianity.  It's akin to saying atheists should accept christianity because they can't prove there is no God.  It doesn't support the premise.

Christian infighting has nothing to do with why I don't accept christianity, personally.  However, it invalidates -a certainty- held by many of the faithful...currently, and abandoned by those who have left the fold.  Their faiths are often dependent upon this certainty, and this certainty is very often an article of faith.