The NWT translation itself a child of necessity and convenience rather than foresight (which, to my mind, is the unfortunate part).  People often don't see their faiths for what they are, or for what others see - while they're in them. Classic outsider test needs to be applied, but it rarely is..lol.

(June 7, 2015 at 7:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The NWT translation itself a child of necessity and convenience rather than foresight (which, to my mind, is the unfortunate part).  People often don't see their faiths for what they are, or for what others see - while they're  in them.  Classic outsider test needs to be applied, but it rarely is..lol.

I don't know how much of it was planned or done on purpose, but it's a pretty smart bit of marketing. If you're going to differentiate yourself from the rest of Christianity, why not mark out some clear boundaries? Thus the differing view of god and the trinity, the extensive use of the name Jehovah in the NT, the claim that Jesus was impaled on a stake and not a cross, the observance of mass once a year, the distinct groups (one with a heavenly future, one earthbound), and so on. As I understand it, the adoption of the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" was at least in part a way to distinguish themselves from the many Millerite and Russellite groups that had formed through its early history. I guess the next natural step was to distinguish themselves from mainstream Christianity.

(June 7, 2015 at 1:41 am)nicanica123 Wrote: I don't think that Rhythms can speak for JW's at all. He knows a caricature versions of JW's that he has assembled in his mind. Thats it

People who are well read in scriptures have a better shot at speaking for what your holy book says you should be. Often times a person or group of people's belief do not align with the scriptures they view as holy. Almost always these people don't even realize that they're not following their scriptures. I personally think it's because most people are trained as young children to only read the happy verses and the ones that actually make sense for the beliefs they like to have. 

(June 7, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote: I demonstrated this with Rhythms where I copy and pasted a single quote from Stephen Hawking that would imply that he is a theist. 

You demonstrated how uncomfortable you were with your own words, and the doctrine of the kindgom hall...but beyond that........lol?  -I- can understand why JW's believe what they do, the way they do, it takes no convoluted shit about context for me, no doublespeak for me.  Even now you're laying more chips on the pile

Was the belly a true god, or a false god?  Was satan a true god, or a false god?  Was jesus a true god......or was jesus a false god?  Can you say the very last and remain true to the faith?  My comments (and even your very own declarations to precisely the same effect, in no uncertain terms) are uncomfortable, but they are not a caricature, nor are they false or inaccurate.  I'll stand by every word that comes out of my mouth...which is more than can be said for you..huh?



(you keep implying that there is some shortage of verses regarding christs divinity, or the nature of the godhead..that a person must cherry pick to believe something...while I would certainly agree that people -do- cherry pick their beliefs from the text...there's really no shortage with regards to the subject you're discussing, and continually responding as though this was the case is either an honest mistake - or the effects of your indoctrination.  Perhaps, as a doubting seeker, that would interest you, perhaps not, you're the one with faith problems, not I.)

Well I can tell you until I am blue in the face that you're wrong about certain assessments but you're not going to be rational in your replies. If by definition witnesses are polytheist, that doesn't make a difference to me. The scriptures clearly state that God created Jesus. And the two created everything else 1 Corinthians 1:15,16. Jehovah is god almighty and Jesus is his only begotten son. The absolute closest thing that we would ever have to a resemblance of God. 

(June 7, 2015 at 1:55 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Well, I've got half dozen books on JW's on the shelf next to my small collection books on Mormonism, masonry, Eastern Orthodoxy, and atheism, etc. Despite the protestations of some here to the contrary, I do try to do a bit of homework before posting.

And, yes, JW's do have a special animus towards Catholicism...but that's nothing new. The darkness hates the light. "It burns us, precious."

JW's say that Jesus was really Michael the Archangel...thus, a created being. But unless I missed something really big in my reading and conversations with JW's, I never understood them to hold that they acknowledge more than one God.

Now, Mormons do EXACTLY what you have suggested...is it possible you have these two groups confused?

Well if Catholics are the biggest perpetrators of false christianity then I guess god would have the greatest animusn towards them. Can you at least respond to the fact that Jesus often refers to himself as an inferior to God? Or what about in Daniel where Nebuchadnezzar is referred to king of kings, and then in Revelation Jesus is called the king of kings. Does this make Nebuchadnezzar Jesus Christ? The same title is used?

Here's another attempt to help you Nic This is an opinion I have formed, and I openly admit it may be totally wrong.

It's obvious you are very conflicted at the moment. I think part of you really wants the religious claims to be true, for emotional reasons, and so you don't then have to consider you may have been wrong for such a long time. I think this desire is making you hop back and forwards between the atheist and the believer, between examining the evidence and feeling the bible must be true.

I'm not trying to influence your decision, only you can make the journey. It doesn't matter to me whether people become open atheists or not. I'm just trying to give you some more points to think about. Like I said, I may be wrong

(June 7, 2015 at 9:47 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 7, 2015 at 1:41 am)nicanica123 Wrote: I don't think that Rhythms can speak for JW's at all. He knows a caricature versions of JW's that he has assembled in his mind. Thats it

People who are well read in scriptures have a better shot at speaking for what your holy book says you should be. Often times a person or group of people's belief do not align with the scriptures they view as holy. Almost always these people don't even realize that they're not following their scriptures. I personally think it's because most people are trained as young children to only read the happy verses and the ones that actually make sense for the beliefs they like to have. 

This would make sense if reading the whole book was a requirement for believers. Most people are too damn busy to even bother reading the bible, praying and constantly going to church. They have families, work, hobbies (other than praying) Holy books are just pieces of paper, you can look at them anyway you want. Most people do realize they don't follow everything and some even openly reject verses because of interpretations, etc. As a former "almost"-catholic I know there's places in the church for everyone, you just need to find the right people. To some degree, I think people's brains determines part of what religion means. That's why there's Christians who hate gays and Christians pro-gay marriage.

I disagree with reading the book making you better suited to talk about something - Reading the bible as a non-believer just makes you good from an academic standpoint if you study different denominations and didn't just read the main parts - But actually living in a religious group gives you some experience most folks don't have. That's why I don't like to talk about religions other than Catholicism (and occasionally other branches of Christianity).´


OP, is it true that JW's would let their children die due to a lack of blood transfusion? What do you think about not celebrating birthdays?

(June 7, 2015 at 11:34 pm)nicanica123 Wrote:

(June 7, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You demonstrated how uncomfortable you were with your own words, and the doctrine of the kindgom hall...but beyond that........lol?  -I- can understand why JW's believe what they do, the way they do, it takes no convoluted shit about context for me, no doublespeak for me.  Even now you're laying more chips on the pile

Was the belly a true god, or a false god?  Was satan a true god, or a false god?  Was jesus a true god......or was jesus a false god?  Can you say the very last and remain true to the faith?  My comments (and even your very own declarations to precisely the same effect, in no uncertain terms) are uncomfortable, but they are not a caricature, nor are they false or inaccurate.  I'll stand by every word that comes out of my mouth...which is more than can be said for you..huh?



(you keep implying that there is some shortage of verses regarding christs divinity, or the nature of the godhead..that a person must cherry pick to believe something...while I would certainly agree that people -do- cherry pick their beliefs from the text...there's really no shortage with regards to the subject you're discussing, and continually responding as though this was the case is either an honest mistake - or the effects of your indoctrination.  Perhaps, as a doubting seeker, that would interest you, perhaps not, you're the one with faith problems, not I.)

Well I can tell you until I am blue in the face that you're wrong about certain assessments but you're not going to be rational in your replies. If by definition witnesses are polytheist, that doesn't make a difference to me. The scriptures clearly state that God created Jesus. And the two created everything else 1 Corinthians 1:15,16. Jehovah is god almighty and Jesus is his only begotten son. The absolute closest thing that we would ever have to a resemblance of God. 

Nor does it make a difference to me.  You certainly don't have to spend anytime convincing me one way or the other, and it's pointless to continue saying "you're wrong" and "you're being illogical" - because A: I'm not, and B..you would have to show that, not claim it - and you simply can't.  1+1=2, and that's that, I'm afraid.  I find it interesting not because I think there's anything wrong with polytheistic underpinnings or insinuations, and not because I care to show you or prove to you that there is only one god (I don't believe that..you see), only because JW's have a "more scriptural than thou" schtick towards other christians which is trivially easy to poke at as an outsider.   You've been backpedaling since the words fell from your mouth....it's unbecoming, and at the end of the day I won't believe any more or less on account of whatever you have to say to salvage that schtick, eh?

The scriptures -also- clearly state that there are no other gods..neither I nor JW's accept their authority in that regard- and that's okay.  You needn't defend that article of faith (I don't expect you to be able to), it is not that article of faith, in truth, that my comments are aimed at, now is it?  It is the staggering duplicity of faith and indoctrination which I'm referring to, not the woeful inaccuracy of faiths creeds and conclusions.

(you couldn't say it, though, could you, you couldn't - now- say "jesus is a true god, satan is a false god", lol...gee, I sure hope he wasn't watching and listening......   )

(June 7, 2015 at 11:47 am)nicanica123 Wrote: ...

Here is why I didn't respond to the whole point overall... becca can claim what she wants. But maybe this could be a post on your website. When someone makes a claim, what is their incentive of being 100% accurate in making that claim? If we dissected her claim we can figure that 2 things are more than likely true. JW's came to her home and they pissed her off. So, now you have me and Tonus (who has no soft hearted feelings towards JWs) saying that we have never gone out that early before. I have asked other JW's and no one has ever gone out that early before. Is it possible true? Yes, it is. But in my opinion, its more than likely fabricated or simply misremembered. 

So what is the incentive for Becca to make sure to be 100% accurate?  She is pissed off and they have ruined "entire days". The vast majority of the people on this board don't like JW's, or at least there door knocking. And its been more than proven that people misremember events in their life almost instantly. Sometimes fabricating the memory in a way that is more fantastical than the original. So it is 100% possible that she remembers the experience how she describes, and I am not calling her a liar because I don't think that she is purposely trying to smear the truth, I just think she is probably wrong. But she has no real incentive to back up her claim. I could claim that I am competing in the next olympics and its not exactly an unreal claim but it could be, and is probably false. (hint. its false) Or my experience with my brother that many have claimed is a lie. I can actually back that claim up but I would choose not too for mine and his privacy. 

So then I get to your juxtaposing it to christianity... I am on this board looking for clarity in those beliefs! But since we're on the subject. If Becca started a movement and had many eyewitnesses to her claim and there were many writings attesting to it. I would further investigate the matter. The NT does have multiple claims from multiple sources. And for 2000 years there has been a movement based on it. I am going to investigate the matter. I have told you before that my faith is weaning on the emotional side. I still can make logical sense of many things. But I just don't feel like god exists. So what I am doing is investigating the claims from a non emotional state. If it was simply a claim of waking someone up at 8am then I would have brushed it off a long time ago

I'll admit, no JW has ever knocked on my door at 8:00 a.m. ... It's usually around 8:07 a.m.

(June 8, 2015 at 5:55 am)Dystopia Wrote:

(June 7, 2015 at 9:47 pm)Losty Wrote: People who are well read in scriptures have a better shot at speaking for what your holy book says you should be. Often times a person or group of people's belief do not align with the scriptures they view as holy. Almost always these people don't even realize that they're not following their scriptures. I personally think it's because most people are trained as young children to only read the happy verses and the ones that actually make sense for the beliefs they like to have. 

This would make sense if reading the whole book was a requirement for believers. Most people are too damn busy to even bother reading the bible, praying and constantly going to church. They have families, work, hobbies (other than praying) Holy books are just pieces of paper, you can look at them anyway you want. Most people do realize they don't follow everything and some even openly reject verses because of interpretations, etc. As a former "almost"-catholic I know there's places in the church for everyone, you just need to find the right people. To some degree, I think people's brains determines part of what religion means. That's why there's Christians who hate gays and Christians pro-gay marriage.

I disagree with reading the book making you better suited to talk about something - Reading the bible as a non-believer just makes you good from an academic standpoint if you study different denominations and didn't just read the main parts - But actually living in a religious group gives you some experience most folks don't have. That's why I don't like to talk about religions other than Catholicism (and occasionally other branches of Christianity).´


OP, is it true that JW's would let their children die due to a lack of blood transfusion? What do you think about not celebrating birthdays?

You have to remember that confirmation bias works for non believers too. So its very possible that a non believer could read the bible and cherry pick what suits them. 

Yes it is true that a JW would let their child die after all other means have been explored. This is more and more not the case as bloodless surgery wings have sprung up all over the world. Bloodless surgery is actually viewed as the golden standard these days. This is something I have actually done research outside of JW's info and backed it up. Of course, this is not saying that a surgeon or doctor of any kind would recommend that a child die rather than receive a transfusion. 

I personally think not celebrating birthdays is great. Its probably because of a bias growing up as a witness but I personally hate seeing how selfish and self serving people can be on their birthdays. Not saying that it applies to all people. Just an observation