(June 13, 2015 at 9:20 am)Little Rik Wrote: But this is my believe whether you believe or not.

Every belief has a basis. Communities and societies function because most of our beliefs have a common or explicable basis that we can either test or that we understand through experience. Religious/spiritual belief violates this by turning it on its side-- the basis can be anything and doesn't need to be proved, just stated. Not surprisingly, it is this spiritual belief system that is scattered and confused, so that throughout human history there have been hundreds of different and conflicting belief systems. To this day, they operate the same way and therefore there is no set of unified beliefs regarding gods or spirits or metaphysical or "intuitional" anything.

Go ahead and have all of the beliefs you want. But there's a reason that you (or any other person) are unable to convince even a majority of the people in the world that your beliefs are true. And you'll try to deflect this truth with more of the same-- beliefs that you can't get others to believe because "I said so" doesn't work very well in the long run.

(June 13, 2015 at 9:08 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 8:24 am)Little Rik Wrote: We were talking about what make sense and what does not.
When you are at a crossroad and you are not 100% sure which
road is better to take you got to work out which one make more sense
don't you Yog?
Atheism in general believe that there is only one life therefore we got the
consciousness that we have thanks to previous generation while those believers
that think that consciousness come from our own effort which we made also in previous lives
think otherwise.
So the point i want to make is..........does make more sense mine theory or yours?
If your theory make more sense then we got to believe that something is showered upon us
like the consciousness that we got for free.
Here we should really see if in this physical universe anything is ever given to us for free.
Do you know anyone who ever got anything for free except maybe some lollies from a pedophile?
But even in that case the bastard expect something from you so i just can't find anything that come for free
except the atheistic idea that we got this consciousness for free.
To summarize where is the logic in the atheist believe?
And if there is no logic then is possible to deduce that as this pillar of atheism collapse then also all the rest will collapse.  

That is the stupidest argument that I have ever heard.

And it's simply wrong.  Sunlight from our sun has been powering evolution throughout the history of our planet and it's all free.

The earth has been benefiting from this free gift 24/7 for 4.5 billion years.

It powers the plants in our oceans and the plants on land, these feed herbivores, which in turn feed omnivores and carnivores.

It is this bountiful supply of free energy which enabled the evolution of complex life forms like us.

So, yes, as a matter of fact, our evolution did come for free.

Wikipedia | Sun Wrote:Sunlight is Earth's primary source of energy.

The sun is the result from previous forms of material lives.
One day it will die like our material-physical body.
You gave the life to your kids and your kids will give life to their own kids.
What this has got to do with our own consciousness?
You are talking about material-physical life not consciousness life.
Have you got any evidence that you gave your kids the consciousness that they got?
You are confusing the matter with the consciousness yog.
First you have to prove that the consciousness is the product of the brain which you can't.
Suppose that you can then you can say that matter generate consciousness therefore your kids
got something for free.
Suppose instead that the matter (brain included) is the product of the consciousness.
In this case nothing come for free because the consciousness come from efforts.
In this case we also can say that the heat and the light of the sun come to us as the result of our own efforts
because our consciousness reach the stage that everything in this universe is part and parcel of the same entity.
Here there is no separation between you the sun and everything that exist.
The sun is you and you are the sun so where is the present?
This is pure philosophy Yog but i doubt you can go along these lines as far as you believe that the consciousness is
the product of the brain.
Thanks anyway for your failed effort.  

(June 13, 2015 at 9:35 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 9:20 am)Little Rik Wrote: But this is my believe whether you believe or not.

Every belief has a basis.  Communities and societies function because most of our beliefs have a common or explicable basis that we can either test or that we understand through experience.  Religious/spiritual belief violates this by turning it on its side-- the basis can be anything and doesn't need to be proved, just stated.  Not surprisingly, it is this spiritual belief system that is scattered and confused, so that throughout human history there have been hundreds of different and conflicting belief systems.  To this day, they operate the same way and therefore there is no set of unified beliefs regarding gods or spirits or metaphysical or "intuitional" anything.

Go ahead and have all of the beliefs you want.  But there's a reason that you (or any other person) are unable to convince even a majority of the people in the world that your beliefs are true.  And you'll try to deflect this truth with more of the same-- beliefs that you can't get others to believe because "I said so" doesn't work very well in the long run.

As i already said to IAT and to Yog when you are not 100% sure of something you usually do what make more sense
and reject what doesn't.
Is not a question that i said so but rather a question of what make sense or not.
I guess you apply this principle to your own life as well.
I do the same Ton that is why i don't believe that we got something for free.
Just go around the streets and tell the people that there is something that come for free.
I am sure that you will find yourself in a straight jacket and in the mental unit before you can open your mouth again.  

(June 13, 2015 at 10:03 am)Little Rik Wrote: I do the same Ton that is why i don't believe that we got something for free.

And the basis of this belief is... ???

That is my point. Without a reasonable basis, your belief is a shot in the dark, and just as valid as any other such belief. Which is to say, not valid. Just like you told Apo that the sun's energy isn't free because the "sun is the result from previous forms of material lives." You can't prove this, you can only state it and claim belief. But it's not a valid basis for deciding that the mind is 'given to us for free.' You can't even provide a valid basis for your belief that the mind is 'given' to us at all. And I can only imagine what sort of lunacy you'll come up with to support your implication that nothing is ever given freely. If you need to layer one supposition after another to get to a particular statement, then that statement is useless until it is tested free of those suppositions (or until the suppositions are made valid through testing). Otherwise your beliefs are no different than what a child might make up while playing with his toys.

Prediction: You'll respond to this with more baseless assertions.

This is starting to develop into the 'Woody' thread. Just substitute Life for Designer and it is identical. Nothing new here.

Life must create life, therefore, first cause is life.

(June 13, 2015 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: The sun is the result from previous forms of material lives.
One day it will die like our material-physical body.
You gave the life to your kids and your kids will give life to their own kids.
What this has got to do with our own consciousness?
You are talking about material-physical life not consciousness life.
Have you got any evidence that you gave your kids the consciousness that they got?
You are confusing the matter with the consciousness yog.

No, I'm not confusing it.  You made a claim and were attempting to argue for it.

(June 9, 2015 at 8:22 am)Little Rik Wrote: I just explained to you by telling you that our goal can not possibly be this material
world because this world is in no position to satisfy our thirst for infinite peace of mind and happiness
so if it is not here has got to be elsewhere.
And if it is elsewhere other than in the material-physical-mental world the only other place is the spiritual
world.  

You said satisfaction of our thirst "has got to be" elsewhere.  Then you tried to argue why.... and failed.

Having failed at that, you want to change the subject and shift the burden of proof.

(June 13, 2015 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: First you have to prove that the consciousness is the product of the brain which you can't.

Reversing the burden of proof...

(June 13, 2015 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: Suppose instead that the matter (brain included) is the product of the consciousness.
In this case nothing come for free because the consciousness come from efforts.

And there's the inevitable changing of the subject...

So much for your argument. The minute it got tough, you threw it under a bus.

Atwater Wrote:As you learned in previous chapters, Dr. Melvin Morse is an outspoken near-death researcher and pediatrician based in Renton, Washington. After many years of research and hearing thousands of stories, Dr. Morse claims that he's never heard a single account that made him think someone actually "left their body" during an episode.

— P.M.H. Atwater, The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences

Is this thread some sort of assertion marathon world record attempt? Someone should be raising money for charity here.

(June 13, 2015 at 10:23 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 10:03 am)Little Rik Wrote: I do the same Ton that is why i don't believe that we got something for free.

And the basis of this belief is... ???

That is my point.  Without a reasonable basis, your belief is a shot in the dark, and just as valid as any other such belief.  Which is to say, not valid.  Just like you told Apo that the sun's energy isn't free because the "sun is the result from previous forms of material lives."  You can't prove this, you can only state it and claim belief.  But it's not a valid basis for deciding that the mind is 'given to us for free.'  You can't even provide a valid basis for your belief that the mind is 'given' to us at all.  And I can only imagine what sort of lunacy you'll come up with to support your implication that nothing is ever given freely.  If you need to layer one supposition after another to get to a particular statement, then that statement is useless until it is tested free of those suppositions (or until the suppositions are made valid through testing).  Otherwise your beliefs are no different than what a child might make up while playing with his toys.

Prediction: You'll respond to this with more baseless assertions.

I am afraid Ton that you are making a hell of a confusion.
It all started when we were discussing about evolution.
The atheist view is that we got the consciousness that we got because of previous generation
so to me this idea come like a present from previous generation.
I said instead that i also believe in evolution but the consciousness that we got is not a present from
previous generation but it come out the effort that we make in previous lives and more consciousness will
also come because previous lives and this particular life.
So to me evolution come as an effort not as a gift.
Atheists can not prove their believe and i also can not prove mine that is why i said to you that we should
go along with what make more sense and reject the rest.
Is this concept something so out the world to understand?
So let us put in some sort of reality this sense or not sense.
Let us take a father and his son-daughter.
The kids have a similar mind to the father so you may think that the kids inherited that mind from the previous generation
and that is not a bad conclusion but what about if those kids consciousness fit in in that particular sort of evolution like when you
put a mosaic piece in the mosaic that suit them most or a piece of puzzle in the correct puzzle so it fit best?
In this case the fact that a particular kid born in a particular family has really nothing to do with the evolution of the father.
The problem with atheists is that they come to fast conclusions well before they try to analyse all possible options.
To summarize.
If atheists are correct then is possible that there is no reincarnation or anyone that look after evolution (a possible God).
If on the other hand i am correct then there is reincarnation and a possible God that look after the running of this universe. 

(June 13, 2015 at 2:41 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: The sun is the result from previous forms of material lives.
One day it will die like our material-physical body.
You gave the life to your kids and your kids will give life to their own kids.
What this has got to do with our own consciousness?
You are talking about material-physical life not consciousness life.
Have you got any evidence that you gave your kids the consciousness that they got?
You are confusing the matter with the consciousness yog.

Quote:No, I'm not confusing it.  You made a claim and were attempting to argue for it.

The universe recycle itself time and time again so why is so strange to say that the sun is the result of previous material forms?

(June 9, 2015 at 8:22 am)Little Rik Wrote: I just explained to you by telling you that our goal can not possibly be this material
world because this world is in no position to satisfy our thirst for infinite peace of mind and happiness
so if it is not here has got to be elsewhere.
And if it is elsewhere other than in the material-physical-mental world the only other place is the spiritual
world.  

Quote:You said satisfaction of our thirst "has got to be" elsewhere.  Then you tried to argue why.... and failed.
Having failed at that, you want to change the subject and shift the burden of proof.

Did i failed?
Show me where i failed yog.  

(June 13, 2015 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: First you have to prove that the consciousness is the product of the brain which you can't.

Quote:Reversing the burden of proof...

A statement require evidence.
So far i never seen any evidence to confirm this atheist believe that is why i said that you can't.
If in the future you will produce any evidence then i will agree with you although i think it will never happen.  

(June 13, 2015 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: Suppose instead that the matter (brain included) is the product of the consciousness.
In this case nothing come for free because the consciousness come from efforts.

Quote:And there's the inevitable changing of the subject...
So much for your argument.  The minute it got tough, you threw it under a bus.

All subjects to me are open for discussion.
No problem with that.
It is rather you guys that refuse to discuss some issue like when i asked what is the meaning of philosophy
and who qualify to be a philosopher.  

Atwater Wrote:As you learned in previous chapters, Dr. Melvin Morse is an outspoken near-death researcher and pediatrician based in Renton, Washington.  After many years of research and hearing thousands of stories, Dr. Morse claims that he's never heard a single account that made him think someone actually "left their body" during an episode.
— P.M.H. Atwater, The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences

Anything strange about it?
By the way does an outspoken have to be someone who come up with the correct conclusion?
I know of people who search for gold for years and years but always fail to find any.
They get so frustrated that they go around telling everybody that there is no gold around.
Too bad for them and too good for those who find it.  

The only thing Rik has managed to discover is ill logic through delusion.