(June 14, 2015 at 4:37 am)robvalue Wrote: Thanks, that's my cousin's band He wrote the lyrics based on the talks we used to have about determinism and such.

Is any of it sampled, or is it all created by the band?

As far as I know it's all created, I can ask him if you like?

(June 14, 2015 at 12:20 am)ILuvGorillas Wrote: I know this has probably been discussed alot on here but wanted to know your opinion on the way i view it
 
I was recently watching this very horrific serial killer case on YT where this guy tortured and killed kids and i see in the comments how he is evil and will burn in hell etc. Now being an atheist i obv don't believe in hell but I am still torn between just how things like free will/evil should be viewed. The way i see it is anything you do/how you act is predetermined by your genetics and environment and that even tho it may seem like you are in control of yourself, in reality that's not how it is.
 
Like yes, the guy was calculating and obviously knew it was wrong but something drove him to do it and I believe it all just comes back to nature and mental illness. anything you do good or bad shouldn't be attributed to your own 100x doing if im making sense? even tho yes it is you,....but its all luck.

With no free will, logically-ish, law and morality just become issues of practicality.  We can't have people murdering folks, so we try to set up a system that deters it as much as possible.

Interestingly, maybe that's a part of what religion is as well.  Another layer of deterrent meant to be an environmental manipulator of the genetics.  So the comment-ers talking nonsense about burning in hell are reinforcing the idea to others that they shouldn't murder people because they will go to hell.  

As for the consistency Benny-Boy is looking for across threads:
1) Different discussions revolve around different perspectives.  Some include free will, others don't.
2) I don't know that any of us are certain about free will's existence/non-existence.
3) Shaking the idea of free will is a complicated given that the illusion is coming from inside the house.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:34 am)wallym Wrote: 2) I don't know that any of us are certain about free will's existence/non-existence.

Oh, there are plenty here who claim to be fully certain that free will either doesn't exist, or is simply a name for a kind of determinist brain function.

(June 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 10:34 am)wallym Wrote: 2) I don't know that any of us are certain about free will's existence/non-existence.

Oh, there are plenty here who claim to be fully certain that free will either doesn't exist, or is simply a name for a kind of determinist brain function.

I've not seen one person say they are certain one way or another, though feel free to point me to these "plenty of people" who are certain, one way or the other.  I've seen more people claim a level of certainty...kind of like those levels of atheism Dawkins talks about.

Personally, I don't see how there is room for it, but I'm no mega genius who knows the working of everything, so much like my atheism, it's just goes on my "no evidence for it except personal experience, which isn't evidence, so reasonable certain doesn't exist, but could be proven wrong" list.

No, you didn't do anything to me in a past life (If I had one, I bet I was a beast of burden), you just seem to like to put words i other people's mouths.  Vague people, true, but you use these vague people in your argument about how illogical and unyielding of thought determinists are, and I don't find that a very agreeable tactic.
 
Here you are doing it again.

I feel like I'm exercising free will. I've made choices that have surprised people, including myself. Is that free will? I don't think so. But I don't think anyone will ever get to the bottom of this question, because there is no way a study can measure the difference between what one wants and what one does, in cases where the actor is not subject to outside restraints.

(June 14, 2015 at 1:37 am)bennyboy Wrote: If there's no free will, you don't have to do anything except sit back and watch the show.

Only if your fate allows such a recourse.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:34 am)wallym Wrote: With no free will, logically-ish, law and morality just become issues of practicality.  We can't have people murdering folks, so we try to set up a system that deters it as much as possible.

With no free will, deterrence too is an illusion, because it is premised on a criminal deciding to not commit a crime -- i.e., exercising free will.

Yup deterrence actually can be measured too (to an extent), and it turns out you really can't deter people from committing crimes with threats of punishment. Hungry people will still steal, desperate people will still act according to their desperation, mentally ill people will still do whatever their mental illness drives them to, etc.


What DOES reduce criminality is education, access to basic needs like food, healthcare, housing, jobs, etc. Funny, but if we remove the need to be a criminal, and you get less criminals!
As for crimes of passion you cannot deter or stop those. Hell, even in the fictional world of Minority Report, the couldn't stop that. For mental illness (Pedophiles, pycopaths, and such) the best option seems early detection and treatment before they start committing big crimes.

Free will is not an illusion simply because human beings are subject to the laws of physics. Everything, including these discussions, including threats of punishment, including actual consequences inevitable or merely imposed by society, shapes our wills, by and through which we are free to act so long as the boundaries of a 'self'---however defined---are not coerced into action contrary to the will.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:21 pm)Aroura Wrote: you just seem to like to put words i other people's mouths.  Vague people, true, but you use these vague people in your argument about how illogical and unyielding of thought determinists are, and I don't find that a very agreeable tactic.
 
Here you are doing it again.

Hypocrite much? Have I at any point said that determinists are illogical and unyielding? No. Now you are putting words in MY mouth. I said that people who claim determinism tend not to act as though they actually believe in determinism-- i.e. they continue to act as though they have free will. Do you dispute this?

So, pretty please, can we please stop attacking me, and start discussing ideas about free will?