Quote:I agree with this.  I think that it is in our nature to fear/despise uncertainty-- we want to KNOW.  So it's not really surprising that people have been trying to set a date for the world's end for centuries, in spite of the very clear admonition in the Bible itself that it wasn't for us to know and that therefore we needn't worry about it.  Russell was really just carrying on a time-worn Christian tradition of trying to pinpoint the date of Christ's second coming.

And it's difficult to say the extent to which it was a con or how much they believed it.  Setting a specific date has an upside (people will flock to your side, offering support and money) and a potentially ruinous downside (when the date passes and nothing happens, you are discredited).  I think that Russell (and many other such men, including some in the present day like Harold Camping) was convinced he had it right, and was disappointed when his numbers fell short, again and again.  I think that Rutherford was a more practical individual who understood that what he was doing amounted to marketing.  His claims that scripture positively identified 1925 as the year when biblical men of fame would be resurrected and become leaders to humankind led to the building of a palatial estate in San Diego, ostensibly to house these worthy men but which became Rutherford's vacation home (which he continued to enjoy the use of during the Great Depression).  This backfired when the year came and went, and instead of just moderate losses in membership as in years before, the movement almost disintegrated, losing around 75-80% of the membership over the next year or two.  Rutherford would rebuild the organization and he would continue to point to certain dates, but never with the certainty and boldness that he used when promoting 1925.

Later leadership seems to have learned to keep things more circumspect, though they almost blew it with the 1975 predictions.  They promoted the year as the end without ever explicitly stating it (though a number of statements were pretty unambiguous, such as referring to "the few months remaining before Armageddon" in a 1974 Kingdom Ministry) but they came close enough that the membership was taking drastic steps, such as taking their kids out of school and running up debt that they assumed would not have to be repaid.  This "unwise" action was joined by those who sold their worldly possessions to dedicate themselves to preaching full-time.  The organization lauded those who did so, but offered nothing when the end failed to materialize.  They didn't even address the issue until declining membership numbers forced them to do so in 1980, at which point they blamed the members for 'reading more into it' than had been said, which was not true.

Sorry if I'm wordy, but I lived through some of this and can clearly remember some of the later stuff (from the 80s and 90s).  I didn't look into the JW history until years after I'd made my break from the organization, so I read it with great interest.  I still find it fascinating.

Its funny you say this because I have a really close friend that has been researching this stuff and telling me about 1925 and so on. He said that he is sick of people in the younger generation saying that they didn't blow up 75 because he lived through it too and knows they did. He was even telling me how Rutherford or one of the older guys said that they knew what constellation Jehovah lived in because of a scripture but then never brought it up again. But in the end he came to the conclusion that its not a magic orb around the GB. They still are a group of men that rather than have an angel meet them and tell them what to do, pray and consider what to do. If JW's are by chance the true religion, it won't matter what they got wrong because in the long run their efforts have been preaching and purely worshiping Jehovah. So I am in a similar position. I don't care that they screwed up in a lot of areas. I don't even care if the 144k is not even a literal number.

It does bum me out that they can be a little bit disingenuous in fessing up to those past mistakes but at the same time, I think that humans are so fickle that you have to sometimes play everything off like its all according to plan. I heard this podcast story about a girl that was working in Alaska as a dogsledder for cruise ship tourist. And one day everything went wrong but the manager just kept telling the employees to play it off like it was according to plan and really a good thing. It sucks, but sometimes you do have to be a little disingenuous to keep humans spirits up

(June 13, 2015 at 5:38 pm)nicanica123 Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 12:28 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: So non celibate homosexuals are comparable to alcoholics in your organization? Here is a few differences. For  homosexual practicing responsibly is healthy just as a active sex life is good for us all. Where as alcoholism is inherently destructive.

Sure and if someone wanted to be an alcoholic that is their decision right? And they have to suffer the consequences of their actions? I probably shouldn't have compared it to alcoholism in the first place but rather just simply a heterosexual desiring to commit fornication. Like I have been saying to stimbo, it doesn't make sense from an atheist point of view but if you believed in god and believed that there were positive benefits to living by its standards then it would be that individuals prerogative to decide whether or not they viewed their feelings as natural or not. If they felt they were then being a JW wouldn't be a good fit for them. They wouldn't be allowed to get baptized and I don't know why they would anyway

So your still arguing that on homosexuality is a choice? Because we have almost 40 years of psychology saying otherwise. As for fornication being a choice, well I suggest you look at moslovs heirarrchy of the needs http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FhTgHobEouE/TP..._Needs.png

Notice how sex is right next to food. Yeah I suppose eating is a choice too.
Now this perspective won't make sense to a witness but, if your the creator of a universe that 13 billion ly across and filled with wonders we can't imagine, then why the fuck would you give 2 shits about what a bunch of primates do with their peepees? You wouldnt, but if your a bronze age king looking to manipulate then guilt is a great tool, and homosexuals are a great boogie man.

(June 13, 2015 at 7:15 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 5:38 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: Sure and if someone wanted to be an alcoholic that is their decision right? And they have to suffer the consequences of their actions? I probably shouldn't have compared it to alcoholism in the first place but rather just simply a heterosexual desiring to commit fornication. Like I have been saying to stimbo, it doesn't make sense from an atheist point of view but if you believed in god and believed that there were positive benefits to living by its standards then it would be that individuals prerogative to decide whether or not they viewed their feelings as natural or not. If they felt they were then being a JW wouldn't be a good fit for them. They wouldn't be allowed to get baptized and I don't know why they would anyway

So your still arguing that on homosexuality is a choice? Because we have almost 40 years of psychology saying otherwise. As for fornication being a choice, well I suggest you look at moslovs heirarrchy of the needs http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FhTgHobEouE/TP..._Needs.png

Notice how sex is right next to food. Yeah I suppose eating is a choice too.
Now this perspective won't make sense to a witness but, if your the creator of a universe that 13 billion ly across and filled with wonders we can't imagine, then why the fuck would you give 2 shits about what a bunch of primates do with their peepees? You wouldnt, but if your a bronze age king looking to manipulate then guilt is a great tool, and homosexuals are a great boogie man.

Actually no, JW's do believe that people could be born with the desires. The same I am born with sinful desires. Maybe god would have standards on how his gift of life is used. The difference is that JW's recognize that having a desire doesn't justify it.

(June 13, 2015 at 5:35 pm)nicanica123 Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 5:09 pm)pocaracas Wrote: On topic: aren't you all a bunch of blasphemers?

Haha, that based off of an old Jewish superstition. I love that part of the movie though

I thought it was based off one of the ten commandments
"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" (KJV)

(June 13, 2015 at 5:50 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: Its funny you say this because I have a really close friend that has been researching this stuff and telling me about 1925 and so on. He said that he is sick of people in the younger generation saying that they didn't blow up 75 because he lived through it too and knows they did. He was even telling me how Rutherford or one of the older guys said that they knew what constellation Jehovah lived in because of a scripture but then never brought it up again. But in the end he came to the conclusion that its not a magic orb around the GB. They still are a group of men that rather than have an angel meet them and tell them what to do, pray and consider what to do. If JW's are by chance the true religion, it won't matter what they got wrong because in the long run their efforts have been preaching and purely worshiping Jehovah. So I am in a similar position. I don't care that they screwed up in a lot of areas. I don't even care if the 144k is not even a literal number.

It does bum me out that they can be a little bit disingenuous in fessing up to those past mistakes but at the same time, I think that humans are so fickle that you have to sometimes play everything off like its all according to plan. I heard this podcast story about a girl that was working in Alaska as a dogsledder for cruise ship tourist. And one day everything went wrong but the manager just kept telling the employees to play it off like it was according to plan and really a good thing. It sucks, but sometimes you do have to be a little disingenuous to keep humans spirits up

But it's an issue for the organization, since its leadership teaches that it is god's "faithful and discreet slave" and the only possible conduit for god to reveal his plan via the holy spirit.  They have often criticized other religions for false teachings and for unChristian behavior.  If they are practicing the same, it removes their moral authority and exposes it as not being the true faith.  This may not matter to you, and it no longer matters to me.  But there's a reason that they try to keep this stuff from the rank-and-file.

Russell believed that the pyramids of Egypt were used by god as tools of prophesying, and he wrote extensively about how the measurements of the pyramid of Giza could be used to foretell the future.  As one might expect, this is not mentioned to the members today!  In 1928 Rutherford wrote, in his book Reconciliation, that the Pleiades might be the location of heaven.  It's not just that they're being disingenuous today; it's that they taught so many bizarre and downright insane things in the past.  And this past is completely rewritten to make them seem as if they were inspired leaders chosen and guided by god in order to prepare his people for the next world, with nary a misstep.  What really happened is quite different, and should cast doubt (to put it mildly) on anything they claim as "truth" today.

(June 13, 2015 at 7:41 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 5:35 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: Haha, that based off of an old Jewish superstition. I love that part of the movie though

I thought it was based off one of the ten commandments
"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" (KJV)

Sure, but if that is what Jehovah meant then why is the name recorded in the OT over 6k times? Obviously this is an example of major over corrections by humans. Some Jews have like 100 different words that are close enough to the name that they refuse to utter

(June 13, 2015 at 8:16 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 5:50 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: Its funny you say this because I have a really close friend that has been researching this stuff and telling me about 1925 and so on. He said that he is sick of people in the younger generation saying that they didn't blow up 75 because he lived through it too and knows they did. He was even telling me how Rutherford or one of the older guys said that they knew what constellation Jehovah lived in because of a scripture but then never brought it up again. But in the end he came to the conclusion that its not a magic orb around the GB. They still are a group of men that rather than have an angel meet them and tell them what to do, pray and consider what to do. If JW's are by chance the true religion, it won't matter what they got wrong because in the long run their efforts have been preaching and purely worshiping Jehovah. So I am in a similar position. I don't care that they screwed up in a lot of areas. I don't even care if the 144k is not even a literal number.

It does bum me out that they can be a little bit disingenuous in fessing up to those past mistakes but at the same time, I think that humans are so fickle that you have to sometimes play everything off like its all according to plan. I heard this podcast story about a girl that was working in Alaska as a dogsledder for cruise ship tourist. And one day everything went wrong but the manager just kept telling the employees to play it off like it was according to plan and really a good thing. It sucks, but sometimes you do have to be a little disingenuous to keep humans spirits up

But it's an issue for the organization, since its leadership teaches that it is god's "faithful and discreet slave" and the only possible conduit for god to reveal his plan via the holy spirit.  They have often criticized other religions for false teachings and for unChristian behavior.  If they are practicing the same, it removes their moral authority and exposes it as not being the true faith.  This may not matter to you, and it no longer matters to me.  But there's a reason that they try to keep this stuff from the rank-and-file.

Russell believed that the pyramids of Egypt were used by god as tools of prophesying, and he wrote extensively about how the measurements of the pyramid of Giza could be used to foretell the future.  As one might expect, this is not mentioned to the members today!  In 1928 Rutherford wrote, in his book Reconciliation, that the Pleiades might be the location of heaven.  It's not just that they're being disingenuous today; it's that they taught so many bizarre and downright insane things in the past.  And this past is completely rewritten to make them seem as if they were inspired leaders chosen and guided by god in order to prepare his people for the next world, with nary a misstep.  What really happened is quite different, and should cast doubt (to put it mildly) on anything they claim as "truth" today.

I guess thats true if you believe that if they're not 100% right about everything then they have to be 100% wrong. I just don't believe that is worth it to view anything that way. Clearly Russell had some crazy ideas. Can god have a single conduit and they still be wrong or imperfect? Isn't it more of an outrageous claim to be infallible like the Pope? And I think that the criticism towards other religions is based off gratuitousness. Its not that JW's are saying that Catholics are horrible because they're probably wrong in some of their beliefs but rather because they so obviously have adopted pagan and self serving beliefs into their ethos.

Quote:Its not that JW's are saying that Catholics are horrible because they're probably wrong in some of their beliefs but rather because they so obviously have adopted pagan and self serving beliefs into their ethos.

A statement that could be(and is) just as easily applied towards JW's.  I think it's silly to say that of either group, what do you think?

(June 15, 2015 at 8:01 am)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:Its not that JW's are saying that Catholics are horrible because they're probably wrong in some of their beliefs but rather because they so obviously have adopted pagan and self serving beliefs into their ethos.

A statement that could be(and is) just as easily applied towards JW's.  I think it's silly to say that of either group, what do you think?

Well for starters, JW's reject all pagan holidays and beliefs. But its pointless to try and convince you because in the end, you'll just say that we do the same thing

I think it's quaint and heartwarming that you feel that JW's have made a break from pagan beliefs.   JW's fellow christians think they have as well, and strongly disagree with the notion that -JW's- have.  Again, I think that this is silly.  You're both arguing your doctrines, rather than fact...and quite frankly, neither of you are on friendly terms with facts.  The defensive believer in you desperately needs to make this about me.

It isn't, I haven't been saying these things, you have.  Own the conversation that you chose to have.  -All of you- are indebted to your pagan forebearers.  There's no break.  Without the pagan influence you wouldn't even recognize your own religions.  They would seem as alien to all of you as judaism -already seems- to all of you.  Understand?  Your polytheistic arianism is somehow better or less pagan than their monotheistic trinitarianism?  Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds to anyone who was -not- raised as a JW? Are we really already at the point where everything you've been taught is useless, that your only response to me is "oh yeah, well you're -x-"? Why is that? Why did the people who gave you the answers leave you so unprepared against even the most gentle of resistance?