Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 19, 2015 at 9:24 pm
(June 19, 2015 at 3:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ... I find it much less plausible that the laws of nature/physics would ever allow for anything to come from nothing, than for there to be something above nature involved.
I do not recall anyone stating or claiming that anything came from nothing, except perhaps some theists.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 19, 2015 at 11:46 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2015 at 11:55 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 19, 2015 at 9:24 pm)IATIA Wrote: (June 19, 2015 at 3:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ... I find it much less plausible that the laws of nature/physics would ever allow for anything to come from nothing, than for there to be something above nature involved.
I do not recall anyone stating or claiming that anything came from nothing, except perhaps some theists.
How would you explain it?
(June 19, 2015 at 3:58 am)Rhythm Wrote: I thought the OT was allegorical........you telling me you don't think so after all...you think that god really, literally, -did- create all of this? Your idea of an allegory is starting to seem more and more like whatever you want to be true or untrue at a given moment in a given conversation. That's actually -not- what an allegory is.
I believe in God and evolution.
(June 19, 2015 at 4:08 am)Neimenovic Wrote: (June 19, 2015 at 3:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, this is true. Don't you agree though that we don't have proof of either scenario? So then this doesn't have anything to do with information. At least not at this time, since we don't have any information yet.
But that doesn't mean we can't estimate probabilities
It's the mistake people often do: because we don't know for sure either way, that means the chance is 50/50 right? Nope. It don't work like that. We can assess which is more plausible.
Exactly. So calling someone ignorant for taking either side seems a little misplaced when it's just up to individual assessment with no proof leaning to either side.
(June 19, 2015 at 6:11 am)ignoramus Wrote: CL, you are saying it's easier to believe that a "supernatural" event is responsible rather than an as yet undiscovered "natural" event?
You do know that there is no such thing as a supernatural event? One has never occurred, ever.
We find the idea ridiculous, you find it understandable simply because you already have subscribed to so much of it from the bible.
Tell me CL, why do all religious people shove god in any and every crack they can find.
I just find the concept silly.
Yes, to me, in my opinion, it seems more plausible. We are free to disagree and be friends. :-)
(June 19, 2015 at 6:15 am)Neimenovic Wrote: What does supernatural even mean?
Everything that exists is a part of the natural world. Everything is natural.
The dictionary says:
Supernatural - attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
(June 19, 2015 at 7:24 am)Stimbo Wrote: (June 19, 2015 at 3:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I respect your views, but I think what you say is a matter of opinion. I find it much less plausible that the laws of nature/physics would ever allow for anything to come from nothing, than for there to be something above nature involved. With neither having any proof, it would honestly take more faith for me to believe the former.
Really? So where did this creator god come from?
It's argument from ignorance mated with special pleading. "I can't imagine how anything can possibly come from nothing without having to be created by a powerful, intelligent entity which came from nothing". Even if you fudge things to allow this god to have always existed, you are still faced with having to account for its origin and nature. See, sticking a label saying "God" onto a mystery has absolutely zero explanatory power; it tells us nothing about how the god created the Universe, by what mechanism, for what reason etc. It's a skyhook in a Universe of cranes.
And even if I have more faith than you in these things, didn't you just get done telling us that you believe in the existence of your god by faith in the absence of material evidence? Is faith a good thing or a bad one? Especially since there actually is far more evidence to indicate a natural, physical cause of the Universe than there has ever been for any god.
To believe in God means to believe He is supernatural. He did not need to "come" from anywhere, as He is not bound by the laws of nature. He created all dimensions of time and space.
(June 19, 2015 at 5:38 pm)whateverist Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: What do you mean? I meant it is good to see you taking part in threads you didn't start yourself. It gives you the freedom to come and go more than one you start yourself. Also shows some flexibility on your part.
Gotcha. Thanks! :-)
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 20476
Threads: 447
Joined: June 16, 2014
Reputation:
111
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 12:50 am
CL, it's all good matey... that's what robust discussion is about ...
We're just sharing ideas and opinions.
You seem confident, polite and well mannered. This tells me you are not threatened by us and we you.
That's how it should be. Neither side has an agenda.
Catch!
(I, and the crazy cat ladies need some cat photos!)
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Posts: 67177
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 12:52 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 12:59 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Quote:I believe in God and evolution.
Good for you...but your churches doctrinal position rules out evolution as we know it, entirely. We simply aren't descended from adam and eve, and you -must- believe that we are..lest ye run afoul of the infallible utterings of the men in funny hats. This is no small thing...your belief in god does not -have- to contradict your belief in evolution...but your fealty to the catholic church...does. Tell you what though...you don't -have- to believe in evolution.....belief isn't actually required or even helpful. It's just a fact. Course...that means that your churches doctrinal position -denies a fact in favor of it's faith position-...but when has that ever been a problem for the church, it's followers...or yourself?
Quote:To believe in God means to believe He is supernatural. He did not need to "come" from anywhere, as He is not bound by the laws of nature. He created all dimensions of time and space.
You mean, to believe in -your- god......means to believe he is supernatural. Granted (but only provisionally....even some christians don't believe their god is supernatural at all)...
.............but why any of you believe this -to begin with- is still a mystery.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 12:58 am
(June 20, 2015 at 12:50 am)ignoramus Wrote: CL, it's all good matey... that's what robust discussion is about ...
We're just sharing ideas and opinions.
You seem confident, polite and well mannered. This tells me you are not threatened by us and we you.
That's how it should be. Neither side has an agenda.
Catch!
(I, and the crazy cat ladies need some cat photos!)
Thank you so much for your kind words!! : 
I'm ashamed to say I don't know how to put a picture on here lol.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 67177
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 1:01 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 1:01 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You put "[img.]" in front of the link, and "[/img.]" behind it...sans the quotes and period.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 1:04 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 1:06 am by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 20, 2015 at 12:52 am)Rhythm Wrote: Quote:I believe in God and evolution.
Good for you...but your churches doctrinal position rules out evolution as we know it, entirely. We simply aren't descended from adam and eve, and you -must- believe that we are..lest ye run afoul of the infallible utterings of the men in funny hats. This is no small thing...your belief in god does not -have- to contradict your belief in evolution...but your fealty to the catholic church...does. Tell you what though...you don't -have- to believe in evolution.....belief isn't actually required or even helpful. It's just a fact.
The Church does not rule out evolution. Most Catholics, including the last several popes, all believed in evolution. It was a Catholic priest who introduced the big bang theory, and the pope was super excited about it.
Quote:Quote:To believe in God means to believe He is supernatural. He did not need to "come" from anywhere, as He is not bound by the laws of nature. He created all dimensions of time and space.
You mean, to believe in -your- god......means to believe he is supernatural. Granted (but only provisionally....even some christians don't believe their god is supernatural at all)...
.............but why any of you believe this -to begin with- is still a mystery.
Hmm I've never heard of any god who is not supernatural. The very definition of the word is to suggest a supernatural element. I also have never heard of a Christian who does not believe that God is supernatural at all.
(June 20, 2015 at 1:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: You put "[img.]" in front of the link, and "[/img.]" behind it...sans the quotes and period.
Thank you so much!
Problem is my pictures are not in a "link".... 
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
Posts: 67177
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 1:08 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 1:25 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Yes, the church does rule out evolution. If I explain this to you...will you make an attempt to give up either your "belief" in evolution or your fealty to the church? The pope may be super excited, but the church is super-ignorant, and the current pope cannot change what has already been infallibly decided...now can he?
Your definition of a god as a supernatural agent has been priveledged...but it isn't the only definition. "Supernatural" -as a category- doesn't even make sense in some belief structures.....so what gets put in that box and what doesn't is a complete non-starter..in those cases. There is no split, no distinction, no "super" world to our "natural world"...only "the world". Once upon a time.........this appears to have been the only show in town. Supernatural, as a category, is relatively recent. It simply -couldn't- have meant anything before we had some idea of what the "natural" world was. One day a theist will be excusing the lack of evidence for her god not because it is super natural...but because it is -hyper- natural..on and on, so forth, ad infinitum.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 20476
Threads: 447
Joined: June 16, 2014
Reputation:
111
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 1:27 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 1:27 am by ignoramus.)
CL, half the problem with pictures is getting them on the net before you can link to them.
Here's a real easy trick.
goto
https://imgflip.com/memegenerator
click on upload picture.
find it on your hardrive, click ok and it should upload.
you can then leave it as is or optionally add some text to the top or bottom.
Click generate
the middle link is what you want to cut and paste.
Paste it anywhere in a reply. (as below)
you really only need the bits between the [img]... [/img]
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Posts: 15452
Threads: 147
Joined: June 15, 2015
Reputation:
88
RE: Q about arguments for God's existence.
June 20, 2015 at 1:53 am
Thank you to Rhythm and Ignoramus
I have 6 of these bad boys, but Loki is my favorite so here it is.
[img] ![[Image: n5psg.jpg]](https://i.imgflip.com/n5psg.jpg) via Imgflip Meme Maker[/img]
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
|
