(October 2, 2010 at 3:31 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 2, 2010 at 1:28 am)Godschild Wrote: Rev.22:13 Of course He's the Alpha and Omega He was with God from the first and will be God forever. I never said Christ was not God just a seperate part of the one true living God.

You are arguing the merits of a non existant entity, but have fun.

You have made the claim that God is non-existant now prove it most omniscient one.

Did you read the part in my post, the part that you didn't bold, how a sacrifice to appease the wrath of a god, though the community theoretically benefits, is still a sacrifice to a god?

You're splitting hairs and playing semantic games but, at the end of the day, you've got a god being a sacrifice to convince himself to forgive us. Seems like he could dispense with the whole bleeding-on-a-cross thing if he'd already made the decision to forgive.

(October 2, 2010 at 9:59 am)Godschild Wrote: You have the most unreasonable way of reading what I have written. I did not say that Christ sacrificed Himself to us nor would I ever believe that,

That's exactly what you said

Quote:I said He did not sacrifice Himself to Himself,

Christ did not sacrifice himself to himself, correct. God sacrificed himself, to himself.

Quote:He Gave His life for us (do you understand what the word for means.)

I do, but not when you use it two different ways. The first what you wrote it was implying that the SACRIFICE was FOR US. "Gave his life for us" and "The sacrifice is for us" are two different things.

Grammar context is key, and you seem to lack this. These two sentences are completely different:

"The sacrifice was for us."
"Christ gave his life for us."

The sacrifice was not FOR us. It was for God.

Quote:We are not giving a sacrifice to any one

Then why sacrifice in the first place? If it's not a sacrifice, it was just the murder of Jesus. Which is not a sacrifice, it's murder. A sacrifice is FOR someone.

Quote:that has been done for us once and for all, no other sacrifice needed. When Christ gave His life for us it was sufficient for all people for all time.

Christ gave his life for "us," but to whom did he give the sacrifice to?

Quote:Yes we do have control of our own fate, God gave us freewill to insure that our eternal destiny was our choice not His.

Okay cool. So if I choose not to go to hell because I didn't give money to kid fiddlers, God won't toss me there, right? If I ignore your religion entirely, and just go about my life, God won't send me to some fiery pit for eternity, right? Okay, cool.

Quote:Yes our sin is covered when we accept Christ as our savior, at that given point in time. Yes a person condenms his/herself to hell

No, a person does not. God sends a person to hell. Humans do not make an active choice to be burned for eternity because they didn't buy into an unproven belief system.

Quote:and God the Father shows them why and how they did this. You are right no one wants to go into an eternal hell, that is when they realize it is a real place, so yes God is the One who puts people there, kicking and screaming all the way there.

Oh, so there you go, you just agreed with me in the first place. God sends people to hell. So, humans don't control their own destiny, and the sacrifice that was FOR God, was meant to cover our sins so that he doesn't send us there.

Quote:The answer to your last paragragh is yourself, God shows you why your choices lead to this and off you go. This is not what God wants for you, it is your choice.
I do not pussyfoot around it is your misconception of what I post that must make you think I am.

No, you do, because you refused to answer my last paragraph which was a hypothetical situation, that asked a direct question to you, which you ignored.

I know exactly what you're posting and how you act, and it's calling "pussyfooting around the subject."

You have still yet to demonstrate how the statement, "God sacrificed himself, to himself" is inaccurate.

God (Which is composed of the trinity) sacrificed a part of himself (Christ), to himself.

So far, you've tried to tell me that the sacrifice was:

1) Not made to God
2) That humans have the ability to simply ignore sin, and have the choice to not go to Hell at will. (Or rather, you're implying humans make an avid choice to go to hell) Also, that God does not send us there.
3) Then you say that God sends us there.

Seriously, you can't even get the facts of your own religion straight. I should refer you to this thread:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-4881.html

Not only do you lack knowledge in your own religion, you're also a horrible apologist.

(October 2, 2010 at 10:09 am)Godschild Wrote: [quote='Zen Badger' pid='96965' dateline='1286004686']

You have made the claim that God is non-existant now prove it most omniscient one.

I'm not disputing the possible existence of a god.

But the only evidence you have for your particlular god(the bible) has been shown to be at odds with reality so many times that it is a very safe bet that he doesn't exist.

"Omniscient one", hmmm, I like that.

(October 3, 2010 at 1:25 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 2, 2010 at 10:09 am)Godschild Wrote: [quote='Zen Badger' pid='96965' dateline='1286004686']

You have made the claim that God is non-existant now prove it most omniscient one.

I'm not disputing the possible existence of a god.

But the only evidence you have for your particular god(the bible) has been shown to be at odds with reality so many times that it is a very safe bet that he doesn't exist.

"Omniscient one", hmmm, I like that.

*Groan*

(October 2, 2010 at 9:59 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes we do have control of our own fate, God gave us freewill to insure that our eternal destiny was our choice not His. Yes our sin is covered when we accept Christ as our savior, at that given point in time. Yes a person condenms his/herself to hell and God the Father shows them why and how they did this. You are right no one wants to go into an eternal hell, that is when they realize it is a real place, so yes God is the One who puts people there, kicking and screaming all the way there.

And if a person dies without ever having heard of your god or jesus, what happens to him/her then?

Are they cast into eternal torment for the sin of unintentional ignorance?

'cos you would think that a omnipotent god would be able to make sure that everyone everywhere and everytime would get to hear his message.

Quote:how a sacrifice to appease the wrath of a god, though the community theoretically benefits, is still a sacrifice to a god?

It's still a bitch on the lamb or the goat, though. I'll bet they'd be willing to forget the whole thing.

(October 3, 2010 at 1:31 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 2, 2010 at 9:59 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes we do have control of our own fate, God gave us freewill to insure that our eternal destiny was our choice not His. Yes our sin is covered when we accept Christ as our savior, at that given point in time. Yes a person condenms his/herself to hell and God the Father shows them why and how they did this. You are right no one wants to go into an eternal hell, that is when they realize it is a real place, so yes God is the One who puts people there, kicking and screaming all the way there.

And if a person dies without ever having heard of your god or jesus, what happens to him/her then?

Are they cast into eternal torment for the sin of unintentional ignorance?

'cos you would think that a omnipotent god would be able to make sure that everyone everywhere and everytime would get to hear his message.

God takes that situation and judges that person by the life they lead, now what all He considers I'm not sure. I do trust that it will be completely fair.

(October 4, 2010 at 10:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: God takes that situation and judges that person by the life they lead, now what all He considers I'm not sure. I do trust that it will be completely fair.

I'm sorry, I've never heard such nonsense. Please quote the part from the bible that says that.

(October 3, 2010 at 1:06 am)IceSage Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='97026' dateline='1286027962']
You have the most unreasonable way of reading what I have written. I did not say that Christ sacrificed Himself to us nor would I ever believe that,

IceSage Wrote:That's exactly what you said

Christ did not sacrifice Himself to us, He sacrificed Himself for us. Man you sure get confused easily.

Quote:I said He did not sacrifice Himself to Himself,

IceSage Wrote:Christ did not sacrifice himself to himself, correct. God sacrificed himself, to himself.

Christ only sacrificed Himself for us He did not sacrifice Himself to anyone.

Quote:He Gave His life for us (do you understand what the word for means.)

IceSage Wrote:I do, but not when you use it two different ways. The first what you wrote it was implying that the SACRIFICE was FOR US. "Gave his life for us" and "The sacrifice is for us" are two different things.


Grammar context is key, and you seem to lack this. These two sentences are completely different:

"The sacrifice was for us."
"Christ gave his life for us."

The sacrifice was not FOR us. It was for God.

Now I know what God meant when He said that though they may have eye sight they are blind. I also see why you think I pussyfoot around.

Quote:We are not giving a sacrifice to any one

IceSage Wrote:Then why sacrifice in the first place? If it's not a sacrifice, it was just the murder of Jesus. Which is not a sacrifice, it's murder. A sacrifice is FOR someone.

Yes the sacrifice was for us and the Jews who had a direct part in Christs death will be held accountable for murder.

Quote:that has been done for us once and for all, no other sacrifice needed. When Christ gave His life for us it was sufficient for all people for all time.

IceSage Wrote:Christ gave his life for "us," but to whom did he give the sacrifice to?

No one He sacrificed Himself for us. You know you are just beating a dead horse with your useless statements.

Quote:Yes we do have control of our own fate, God gave us freewill to insure that our eternal destiny was our choice not His.

IceSage Wrote:Okay cool. So if I choose not to go to hell because I didn't give money to kid fiddlers, God won't toss me there, right? If I ignore your religion entirely, and just go about my life, God won't send me to some fiery pit for eternity, right? Okay, cool.

I might be mistaken but you want be in a cool place for long unless.... well I'm not going to preach. You are being ridiculous and you know it, and you say I do not understand scripture, you yourself have said, it comes down to a choice of accepting Christ as savior or not accepting Christ as savior. That is the only choice, just one, if you can, it's up to you, not me, not God, just you.

Quote:Yes our sin is covered when we accept Christ as our savior, at that given point in time. Yes a person condenms his/herself to hell

IceSage Wrote:No, a person does not. God sends a person to hell. Humans do not make an active choice to be burned for eternity because they didn't buy into an unproven belief system.

Yes, a person does make the choice, stop blameing God for your wrong choice. The belief is faith and with faith there is no proof, not the way you want it there's not. It's not a system either it's a relationship with the living God and I'm sorry that you can not grasp this.

Quote:and God the Father shows them why and how they did this. You are right no one wants to go into an eternal hell, that is when they realize it is a real place, so yes God is the One who puts people there, kicking and screaming all the way there.

IceSage Wrote:Oh, so there you go, you just agreed with me in the first place. God sends people to hell. So, humans don't control their own destiny, and the sacrifice that was FOR God, was meant to cover our sins so that he doesn't send us there.

You truely do not understand christianity at all. No I do not agree with you, God does not make the choice we do by accepting or not accepting Christ as our savior and Lord. God gives us eternal life according to our choice those who do not accept Christ will go to hell. By the way the sacrifice was for us, God is perfect therefore has no need in anyone sacrificing themselves for Him.

Quote:The answer to your last paragragh is yourself, God shows you why your choices lead to this and off you go. This is not what God wants for you, it is your choice.
I do not pussyfoot around it is your misconception of what I post that must make you think I am.

IceSage Wrote:No, you do, because you refused to answer my last paragraph which was a hypothetical situation, that asked a direct question to you, which you ignored.

I know exactly what you're posting and how you act, and it's calling "pussyfooting around the subject."

You have still yet to demonstrate how the statement, "God sacrificed himself, to himself" is inaccurate.

God (Which is composed of the trinity) sacrificed a part of himself (Christ), to himself.

So far, you've tried to tell me that the sacrifice was:

1) Not made to God
2) That humans have the ability to simply ignore sin, and have the choice to not go to Hell at will. (Or rather, you're implying humans make an avid choice to go to hell) Also, that God does not send us there.
3) Then you say that God sends us there.

Yes to 1 and no to 2 & 3. Your assumtions of what I've said is ridiculous.

IceSage Wrote:Seriously, you can't even get the facts of your own religion straight. I should refer you to this thread:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-4881.html

Not only do you lack knowledge in your own religion, you're also a horrible apologist.

I gave you several Bible verses and you ignored those just as you ignor anything that differes from your reasoning (what ever that might be) so yes I have responded to you with verses from the very Bible you say I do not understand and you have never countered with one verse from the Bible that you claim to know so well. It was I who made the challenge to prove Biblically that God sacrificed Himself to Himself and I have yet to see one verse that proves that. I know the post you are talking about and that does not apply to me nor does it apply to you especially to you.

1st John 3:16 By this we know love, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

Hebrews 10:1-18
Mattew 20:28