(July 6, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If a person tells me they do not believe in God and nothing could ever change their mind, even though they never investigated, I will take their word for it. I will believe that they just don't think God is real, and that nothing can change that, and it just is what it is. Are you saying then that these people are being dishonest?

Has anyone ever said that to you?

(July 6, 2015 at 1:07 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If a person tells me they do not believe in God and nothing could ever change their mind, even though they never investigated, I will take their word for it. I will believe that they just don't think God is real, and that nothing can change that, and it just is what it is. Are you saying then that these people are being dishonest?

Has anyone ever said that to you?

I can't say I've ever heard an Atheist say those words exactly, but someone did tell me that they don't need to "investigate" anything to be sure God isn't real, just as we don't need to investigate anything to be sure that unicorns aren't real.

Btw, what are those little guys on your signature?

(July 6, 2015 at 12:57 pm)robvalue Wrote: Well, we literally can't investigate it, usually. That's because the claim is defined in such a way that there is nothing we can learn about it. God is usually carefully defined in order to be science proof, so... if it exists, it's science proof. It can't be investigated.

Not only carefully defined as beyond investigation, but also continually redefined to keep it that way; the bible has it that the sky is a dome placed over a flat Earth, with god existing beyond it. When we found out that wasn't true, and that in fact god did not exist out in space, suddenly heaven is another dimension, ill-defined but inaccessible. Theistic claims flee from facts as soon as we find them, while simultaneously taking credit for those facts in retrospect.

(July 6, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 1:07 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Has anyone ever said that to you?

I can't say I've ever heard an Atheist say those words exactly, but someone did tell me that they don't need to "investigate" anything to be sure God isn't real, just as we don't need to investigate anything to be sure that unicorns aren't real.

Btw, what are those little guys on your signature?

You don't have to investigate anything to not believe in it.

For instance.

I am fairly convinced next door do not have an elephant in their basement.

Do I need investigate just to be sure?

Oh and that's just a dude dancing.

(July 6, 2015 at 1:15 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I can't say I've ever heard an Atheist say those words exactly, but someone did tell me that they don't need to "investigate" anything to be sure God isn't real, just as we don't need to investigate anything to be sure that unicorns aren't real.

Btw, what are those little guys on your signature?

You don't have to investigate anything to not believe in it.

For instance.

I am fairly convinced next door do not have an elephant in their basement.

Do I need investigate just to be sure?

Oh and that's just a dude dancing.

I agree. That's what I was saying to Napoleon.

Give me some shit to investigate though, and I'd be right on it. That seems to be either a misunderstanding or refusal to accept facts that a lot of theists have. They think atheists don't want to investigate.

But it's like asking us if we've looked for a metaphysical needle in a metaphysical haystack. No, we haven't! Give me an actual haystack and an actual needle, and we can talk.

(July 6, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 1:15 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: You don't have to investigate anything to not believe in it.

For instance.

I am fairly convinced next door do not have an elephant in their basement.

Do I need investigate just to be sure?

Oh and that's just a dude dancing.

I agree. That's what I was saying to Napoleon.

What bearing does that have on my actual point though? I never said anything to contradict this.

(July 6, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree. That's what I was saying to Napoleon.

What bearing does that have on my actual point though? I never said anything to contradict this.

Oh I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying that an Atheist can't really say he has no control over the fact that he does not believe God is real unless he informs himself, investigates, etc.

(July 6, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Oh I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying that an Atheist can't really say he has no control over the fact that he does not believe God is real unless he informs himself, investigates, etc.

You said people have no control over what they believe, but you still admire them for investigating (and pyrrho tried to make the stupid comparison between admiration for inanimate objects and sentient beings that supposedly have free will).

I'm saying people do have control. Not necessarily complete control, but they are in control of factors that, in one way or another, lead to their conclusions. That was the point of my bullshit about investigations.

It's not about the result. If you come to the correct conclusion then obviously you have no choice over what your conclusion ought to be. Just the same way you don't get to decide that the Earth is spherical and not flat. But the control of whether the investigation is done scientifically, or accurately is in the hands of the one doing the investigation. Thus, you have some control over what you believe, because you're in control of the investigation. If for example you do a bad investigation of whether the Earth is round, by simply looking into the horizon, then your conclusion is going to be wrong. But you're the one in control of that conclusion. Perhaps not in a direct sense, but in doing a poor or scientifically flawed investigation you've come to the wrong conclusion about the Earth's shape.

Likewise, if you don't investigate at all, and simply deny the Earth's spherical-ness, you're still in control of that. You're in control of whether you bury your head in the sand or whether you seek more knowledge. If you believe in free will, in any form, then it's absurd for you to say you do not have control of your beliefs, because you have control over whether to investigate and how that investigation goes. This was my beef with you earlier when you said people have no control over what it is they believe. They do. Most people don't just pick a belief out of a hat, ofcourse. It's more indirect than that. But they do have control over what they believe through their desire to investigate truth, and how they go about ascertaining that truth.

(July 6, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: blah, blah, blah

[Paraphrasing mine.]

Hey, Catholic Lady.  How come you no vote in my poll poll?

http://atheistforums.org/thread-34462.html