(July 4, 2015 at 2:25 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 3, 2015 at 1:38 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: I do a pretty cool magic trick where I turn a bottle of plain drinking water into a bottle of mouthwash. You think I could snag some followers with that one? Would I need to do more than just a bottle? It'll kind of hurt portability if I have to lug around six stone earns big enough to hold a man's remains.

If you could do that , you would have my attention.

It's  part of my main show, in fact. I even reference the "Water Into Wine" story when I do it.

That's right, ladies and gents. The atheist wizard has a bible trick in his magic show. Burn me in hell, Jehovah. You're not scary. You burn all the cool people, anyway.

(July 6, 2015 at 11:36 am)IATIA Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 11:21 am)Rekeisha Wrote: So you don't believe there is a right and wrong?

No one has said there is no right or wrong, only that it is a subjective determination made by the society, culture or individual at the time.  We could come up with thousands of examples that would show differing opinions,  even among the theists who are "divinely inspired" to know right from wrong.

How do you know that is right? If there is only subjective morals then there is no real right and wrong because the moment you move from that culture to another then there is a different right and wrong. Either there is an objective right and wrong or right and wrong does not exist.

(July 6, 2015 at 11:42 am)Judi Lynn Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 11:21 am)Rekeisha Wrote: The one true God who made the universe as spoken of in the Bible.

Interesting. Can you offer up any sort of scientific proof that one god (or any god for that matter) made the universe?

Quote:You should believe in Him because it is the only coherent reason for you existence.

Horsehockey. I'll believe what science shows as true. I'll believe in him when there is clear-cut evidence in support of his existence. Show documented, scientific proof that the only reason for anyone's existence is because of some imaginary sky daddy.
 

Quote:You don't know God so how can you make this claim?

Do you have any proof, outside of any biblical references, that you DO know god? Say, a video recording of you and him chatting it up?

Quote:Also God has made Himself know to me. I was talking to Him just a moment ago.

Audio recording or it didn't happen.

God is Supernatural and we have already discussed this.
So are you a scientist? Do you do a study on your emotions to make sure that they are true? Do you study the world around you to make sure that it is real?
I have a relationship with God and have had one since I was 5. I didn't read the bible then and he told me about Himself that back up his word on the Bible.
Do you record all of your conversations? If you don't does that mean they are not real?

(July 7, 2015 at 11:32 am)Rekeisha Wrote: God is Supernatural and we have already discussed this.

everything that exists is part of nature and therefore natural, and must follow the laws of nature
Supernatural = beyond nature = beyond everything that exists = nonexistent

if something exists, it means it's natural. If you want to say that something can defy the laws of nature, that's impossible, because laws of nature are all the mechanisms at work in the universe, so even if something were to work in a way that defies the ones we've so far described, it means it follows some other law of nature that is yet unknown to us.

supernatural is an empty concept. it cannot possibly exist, by definition.
if god exists, he is natural.

I've been trying to fit my definition of "supernatural" into your description, Vic. I realized it would amount to two distinct areas of nature, one of which can affect the other but not vice versa, for some reason. So they are still part of nature, just somehow out of alignment so as to only allow one way interaction.

And once again, there's no reason to think this subset is anything other than empty; it's just acknowledging where such things would be if they did exist. The way quantum mechanics has things popping in and out of "existence", it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to think there may be some "other side"; but we can never demonstrate that it's a side we can't ever act upon. So even if this other side exists, stating it's in this other subset is always going to be an argument from ignorance.

What would be better wording... "the set of things that can act on everything else but can't be acted upon by everything else" is rather clumsy.

Cloaked nature?

Fuck this!

In the other thread, pool gave me a two part definition of supernatural:

1) beyond our scientific understanding

which is bullshit. The correct term for this is 'yet unknown'. Our lack ofunderstanding doesn't make the phenomenon in question above the laws of nature, which leads to the second part

2) defying the laws of nature

that would simply make it follow a law that is sort of 'overriding' or maybe applying only to this specific phenomenon

I guess what I'm trying to say is that nature is everything in existence, hence everything that exists is a part of it and therefore natural.

Like Carl Sagan said, if we found god using the scientific method we'd just incorporate him into the scientific understanding, he wouldn't be beyond it but a part of it (I'm paraphrasing). Supernatural is just what some people like to call things that we don't yet have a firm understanding of, but they are very much natural. I don't get ehat the word is supposed to mean, it's doomed to be an empty set from the start. Whatever way I look at it, the term makes no sense at all.

I'm trying to process your definition and I think we're talking about the same thing, the 'overriding' law that would be paramount to the ones we've already described and thus appear to be defying them. Or not. I'm tired, can't brain ._.

Yeah. Comparing it to our current understanding makes no sense to me.

I suppose you could say that this cloaked nature could act upon the rest of nature in ways it can't act on itself, because it can access it from a different "angle" so to speak. Like a guy spitting at a pool table from the ceiling. Or a guy reaching down with a hand we aren't aware of and moving the balls around on the table seemingly by magic.

It's kind of a useless concept still, because as I said it can never be demonstrated to exist, ever. All we can have is as yet unexplained events.

(July 6, 2015 at 11:52 am)Chad32 Wrote: RekeishaSorry that I didn't respond yesterday I didn't see this.

So are emotions, a person's character, thoughts, understanding, and ideas not real? Science can only study the brain but it can not physically grab hold of these things and study them. Are quarks real? No one has seen them.

I have said you can look at the bible but you have refused so the only reason it is untestable is because you will not test it.

You can't physically study me at my computer right now the only way you can know what I am thinking or what I would like is by reading my written words. God wrote His words down in a book and not just that if you submit to Him and repent form your sins you could even get to know what he is like because you have Him all wrong.

What if what the people think will make them healthy, wealthy and happy will no actually do that but the president. Then he proceeds to put that in action do you think the people will see him as a good leader?

There is the study of psychology, neuroscience, and other things that have to do with the mind. We can detect electrical impulses in the brain, understand why we feel many emotions, and see their effects. These things can be studied because we have physical brains to study.  We don't have a god on hand to study, any more than we have a leprechaun. As far as quarks go, they are conencted to hadrons which can be tested.

Test the bible? Ok. Can a body of water come together in space, with no apparent means to keep it in liquid form? No. Is the moon a source of light? No. Was grass and fruit bearing plants the first forms of plant-life? No. Can two individuals created a thriving and healthy species? No. There are things we know about how stars and planets form that don't fit with the way the bible describes the origin of the world and creatures within. The best explanation you have is magic, which can't be tested.

No, I can't study you from here. We could, however, meet up at a lab sometime and probably learn more things about our bodies and ourselves than we ever knew. The great thing about science is that anyone with the proper education and resources can double check anything a scientist says. That's why education is so important. I spent twenty years submitting myself to Jesus. They were fun years, but eventually i grew into my own person like most adults do. Someone with an idea of justice that doesn't mesh with the idea of scapegoating innocent people for my own actions. Or punishing people infinitely for finite crimes.

I'm not sure I understand that last part. "What if what people think will make them healthy, wealthy, and happy will no(t) actually do that but the president." Are you trying to say if there's just one person who knows how to make everyone happy, healthy, and wealthy? There isn't. That's what councils of representatives are for. The closer you get to one person, or a small group, having all the power, the more corrupt the society gets.

I will agree with you, you can study thought with science I was wrong. The reason you can do that is because you are in control. The reason you can't study God is because you don't control Him.
You can't prove my existence outside of science unless I agree to go where you want me to go or you come to me. I would have to submit to your wants or you would have to move towards me. God has made efforts to help you understand Him but you must come to Him. Also how do you know that your science is right in proving that  exist?
By what means are you using to test the Bible?
What do you mean when you say you submitted your life to Jesus?
By what means are you saying that system is corrupt?

(July 7, 2015 at 11:41 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 7, 2015 at 11:32 am)Rekeisha Wrote: God is Supernatural and we have already discussed this.

everything that exists is part of nature and therefore natural, and must follow the laws of nature
Supernatural = beyond nature = beyond everything that exists = nonexistent

if something exists, it means it's natural. If you want to say that something can defy the laws of nature, that's impossible, because laws of nature are all the mechanisms at work in the universe, so even if something were to work in a way that defies the ones we've so far described, it means it follows some other law of nature that is yet unknown to us.

supernatural is an empty concept. it cannot possibly exist, by definition.
if god exists, he is natural.

How do you know this?

(July 7, 2015 at 12:30 pm)Rekeisha Wrote:

(July 7, 2015 at 11:41 am)Neimenovic Wrote: everything that exists is part of nature and therefore natural, and must follow the laws of nature
Supernatural = beyond nature = beyond everything that exists = nonexistent

if something exists, it means it's natural. If you want to say that something can defy the laws of nature, that's impossible, because laws of nature are all the mechanisms at work in the universe, so even if something were to work in a way that defies the ones we've so far described, it means it follows some other law of nature that is yet unknown to us.

supernatural is an empty concept. it cannot possibly exist, by definition.
if god exists, he is natural.

How do you know this?

._.

by reading the dictionary. because that's what those words mean.