It's not the people who refuse to scapegoat that are running away from their misdeeds. It's the ones who rely on a scapegoat to do it. As for our debt, there is nothing someone can do that can't justly be undone by them. Especially if they have an eternity to do it. Yahweh claims we deserve hellfire for existing, sets the bar too high for us to get out of debt on our own, and the only way out he gives us is to scapegoat someone that we must believe in without evidence. Also we're expected to believe that this is a good guy, instead of the source of our problems in the first place.

In a just system, I should atone for my transgressions myself. No one else can do it for me. Also in that just system I will be able to pay my own debt, especially if I have an infinite amount of time to accomplish it. Someone who does everything in his power to force me into a position of absolute servitude is not the solution to my problem. He is the source of my problem.

The story is so silly it makes islam look well-reasoned.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:36 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:14 am)Rhythm Wrote: That was a shoddy attempt.  What we -don't- do is torture the parent then nail them to a fucking post.  Maybe we have that wrong though, you ready to string some unfortunate up as payment for my parking tickets?

The crucifixion means quite a bit, none of it good.......and you know better, despite your claims.

Your sins against God are much more serious than a broken window or a few parking tickets.

YOU cannot pay the debt you owe.

Oh?  Let me get this straight..if I look at a woman the wrong way once that necessitates at least -some- scapegoating, but if I had contempt of law and a debt to the courts greater than Greeces GDP..........

It doesn't -matter- how great my sin debt is Randy, the crucifixion isn't an appropriate solution. Until you're ready to crucify someone to pay for my parking tickets I'll keep reminding you that you know better, and here you are again, driving me further and further from christ.......gj? How is it that apologists like yourself are supposed to be helping people.....in your estimation?

(July 19, 2015 at 10:16 am)Nope Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:09 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Yep. No sacrifice at all.

Again, it is not a sacrifice to suffer if you get to be worshipped and adored forever. Remember mythological Jesus supposedly exists in heaven where his every need is catered to and angels constantly tell him how great he is. No, it wasn't a sacrifice so much as a very smart career move on his part. Besides, he set up the system of sin/hell/heaven in the first place.

It is sort of like a politician who has stripped programs to help the needy but helps out at a food bank because he knows it will earn him more votes

If Jesus is merely a man (as atheists insist), then he is simply dead, and he gained nothing. As man, he had no way to fulfill his own predictions of rising from the dead after three days. Why did he believe he would be able to rise from the dead?

If he was only a human and thought he would be worshiped forever simply for getting himself killed, then that was a really stupid career move...one NOT made by the founders of other great world religions. Consequently, merely dying was completely unnecessary for one who was simply seeking immortality and worship.

If Jesus is God, then He does not have "needs" that are catered to because God has no needs.

The crucifixion is meaningless without the resurrection. As others are fond of pointing out, LOTS of people got crucified; only one rose again as he promised in advance. Jesus' crucifixion is unique in that He predicted both his death and his resurrection in advance as EVIDENCE that He was who He claimed to be - the divine Son of God.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:17 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:16 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Okay, Nemo. Jesus didn't die.

So, what exactly happened to Jesus on the cross and what was the state of his body during the time it was in the tomb?

A temporary cessation of vital processes? Geez, isn't that what I keep saying? I thought we've established that already.

A temporary cessation of all life systems? Breathing? Heart function? Brain function?

And then, voila, after three days (technically about 36-48 hours) it all starts up again by purely natural processes?

Is that what you believe happened?

And is there scientific evidence to support such occurrences? Or was this sort of a one-off thing?

-and if all of that were true, it's one of the best arguments -against- christianity that has ever existed.  

GJ.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:18 am)Nope Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:16 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Okay, Nemo. Jesus didn't die.

So, what exactly happened to Jesus on the cross and what was the state of his body during the time it was in the tomb?

The Jesus described in the bible was fictional. You keep forgetting that we are atheists

No, I keep forgetting that a minority of atheists are Jesus Mythers.

Even other atheists mock that.

Quote:If Jesus is merely a man (as atheists insist), then he is simply dead, and he gained nothing.

And, of course, there is no evidence even for that beyond your silly books.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:18 am)polar bear Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:16 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Okay, Nemo. Jesus didn't die.

So, what exactly happened to Jesus on the cross and what was the state of his body during the time it was in the tomb?

you are making a huge assumption.  Jesus did not die on a cross, jesus was not buried in a tomb and he did not come back to life

Then why do Roman and Jewish historians say that He died on a cross?

The crucifixion is meaningless by default. Either because lots of people were crucified all the time, or because he got rewarded in heaven after he died by being worshipied. So he didn't really lose anything. He lived longer than a lot of people got to, had a really bad week, and got a higher place in heaven than the saintliest saint who ever sainted.