Why does Jesus' "suffering" matter?

[Longhorn]

A temporary cessation of vital processes? Geez, isn't that what I keep saying? I thought we've established that already.

A temporary cessation of all life systems? Breathing? Heart function? Brain function?

And then, voila, after three days (technically about 36-48 hours) it all starts up again by purely natural processes?

Is that what you believe happened?

And is there scientific evidence to support such occurrences? Or was this sort of a one-off thing?

No, Randy, that's what YOU believe happened. I'm only accepting your premise for the sake of argument. I'm not even convinced there was a Jesus at all, let alone one that was crucified.

I'm pointing out that dying and rising isn't dying, even if we accept your story.

[Randy Carson]

Oh, sorry. I thought this was a thread about Jesus' "surfing"...
...

I'll let myself out.

Thanks for the torture porn pic, Mel Gibs... Randy Carson. Way to eloquently make a point. As usual.

If you're sensitive, here's another that is a little less gory.

[Minimalist]

you are making a huge assumption.  Jesus did not die on a cross, jesus was not buried in a tomb and he did not come back to life

Then why do Roman and Jewish historians say that He died on a cross?

The most probable answer is that later xtian criminals forged bullshit into their work.

[Randy Carson]

Your sins against God are much more serious than a broken window or a few parking tickets.

YOU cannot pay the debt you owe.

Oh?  Let me get this straight..if I look at a woman the wrong way once that necessitates at least -some- scapegoating, but if I had contempt of law and a debt to the courts greater than Greeces GDP..........

It doesn't -matter- how great my sin debt is Randy, the crucifixion isn't an appropriate solution.  Until you're ready to crucify someone to pay for my parking tickets I'll keep reminding you that you know better, and here you are again, driving me further and further from christ.......gj?  How is it that apologists like yourself are supposed to be helping people.....in your estimation?

You have no understanding of your own personal sin.

Jesus was willing to die so that you don't have to.

I'm sure just knowing that must drive you away from him because he's such a miserable guy for loving you that much...

[Randy Carson]

The crucifixion is meaningless by default. Either because lots of people were crucified all the time, or because he got rewarded in heaven after he died by being worshipied. So he didn't really lose anything. He lived longer than a lot of people got to, had a really bad week, and got a higher place in heaven than the saintliest saint who ever sainted.

The crucifixion of Jesus is not "meaningless by default" precisely because of Who Jesus is. God sacrificed Himself for you.

He wasn't rewarded in heaven. He is God and not a man. Everything that exists belongs to him. What reward would he receive?

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh?  Let me get this straight..if I look at a woman the wrong way once that necessitates at least -some- scapegoating, but if I had contempt of law and a debt to the courts greater than Greeces GDP..........

It doesn't -matter- how great my sin debt is Randy, the crucifixion isn't an appropriate solution.  Until you're ready to crucify someone to pay for my parking tickets I'll keep reminding you that you know better, and here you are again, driving me further and further from christ.......gj?  How is it that apologists like yourself are supposed to be helping people.....in your estimation?

You have no understanding of your own personal sin.

Jesus was willing to die so that you don't have to.

I'm sure just knowing that must drive you away from him because he's such a miserable guy for loving you that much...

I don't require any understanding of my own personal sin (whatever that means to you), I'm only explaining the contents of my concsience, which does not and cannot include vicarious redemption in any moral, ethical, or legal system.  It doesn't fit in yours either...obviously, except in this one case you've made special pleading arguments for.

I'm driven away because I'm repulsed at the barbarity and immorality of your religion - regardless of it's truth. Tell me more all you like......again, you're failing the purpose you claimed for apologists, and I don;t believe you in any case...not - mind you, on the christ and god bit...I don't believe that you subscribe to a scapegoating sense of ethics or morality anymore than I do, or you'd not have argued against it..just now, when I asked about parking tickets.

Your "christ" is the victim of a crime, not my savior. Understand?

[Randy Carson]

A temporary cessation of all life systems? Breathing? Heart function? Brain function?

And then, voila, after three days (technically about 36-48 hours) it all starts up again by purely natural processes?

Is that what you believe happened?

And is there scientific evidence to support such occurrences? Or was this sort of a one-off thing?

No, Randy, that's what YOU believe happened. I'm only accepting your premise for the sake of argument. I'm not even convinced there was a Jesus at all, let alone one that was crucified.

I'm pointing out that dying and rising isn't dying, even if we accept your story.

Well, when you finally make up your mind, let me know.

You're just using your own indecision as a mean of avoiding the questions I will rain down on you once you have finally decided what it is that you believe.

[Randy Carson]

Then why do Roman and Jewish historians say that He died on a cross?

The most probable answer is that later xtian criminals forged bullshit into their work.

Is that what professional New Testament scholars - the skeptical ones, mind you - believe about Josephus, Tacitus and others?

[Randy Carson]

You have no understanding of your own personal sin.

Jesus was willing to die so that you don't have to.

I'm sure just knowing that must drive you away from him because he's such a miserable guy for loving you that much...

I don't require any understanding of my own personal sin (whatever that means to you), I'm only explaining the contents of my concsience, which does not and cannot include vicarious redemption in any moral, ethical, or legal system.  It doesn't fit in yours either...obviously, except in this one case you've made special pleading arguments for.

Oh, yes. You need to know sooner rather than later when it will be too late.

I'm driven away because I'm repulsed at the barbarity and immorality of your religion - regardless of it's truth.  Tell me more all you like......again, you're failing the purpose you claimed for apologists, and I don;t believe you in any case...not - mind you, on the christ and god bit...I don't believe that you subscribe to a scapegoating sense of ethics or morality anymore than I do.

1. You are a sinner. You have sin within you as a result of the fall, and you commit personal sins against God for which you are accountable.
   
2. As a result of this, you are separated from a Holy God.
   
3. There is absolutely nothing you can do about this separation on your own. If you die in this state, you will be separated from God for eternity.
   
4. Jesus is the means by which you can be re-stored to a right relationship with God. You must place your faith in Him to be saved.
   

[The Grand Nudger]

No, Randy, I don't need to know, because it doesn't matter to me.  I don't fear death, or what dreams may come.  No amount of threatening me with my mortality or your hell is compelling to me.  My -conscience- compels me, and I just can't be a scapegoater, or be made to be a scapegoater.  Understand?

1. Don't care -even if it were true.
2. Don't care -even if it were true.
3. Promises promises.....lol....
4. I'm not interested in a "right relationship" to a scapegoater...unless that "right relationship" is calling said scapegoater out on their bullshit....which is exactly what I do. What's so difficult to understand about this?

Go ahead, though, tell me more, drive me further away.........as though the gap weren't already to great to be bridged. Have we reach the terminus of your apologetic skill yet? Is this something for which you have no argument? Seems a glaring omission what with the subject in question being the central tenet of your faith.

If christianity were true....I couldn't, in good conscience, be a christian. You can respond to -that-, or continue fantasizing about my death....but don't be surprised when I call you to task on your own failures, by your own standard, pursuant to your own claims.