(July 19, 2015 at 10:04 am)Randy Carson Wrote: The latter execution is FAR more graphic and helps us to appreciate the lengths to which God was willing to go in order to redeem us. It was a heavy price, but He paid it.

Jesus did not pay the price for our sins. The penalty for sin is to burn for eternity in hell. If Jesus wanted to pay the price then his ass would be in hell for eternity.

Quote:If your child breaks a large bay window in a neighbor's house that he cannot possibly pay for by himself, you step in to pay the debt to the neighbor. The neighbor is satisfied and the child is no longer under obligation.

We could not possibly repay our debt to God for the sins we commit, so Jesus stepped in to pay it for us. We are absolved, and we are no longer under obligation.

The crucifixion means everything.

Bad example. A window? Let's put this into greater perspective. Let's say a vile person breaks in your house and rapes and kills your family.

Then someone steps in and pays the price for the crime. For the sake of argument let's say the person either pays for it monetarily or chooses to take the vile person's place in jail.

Would that be a just thing? Would you feel that justice was served? I mean it really doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does. Right?

I eagerly await your reply.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [quote='Nope' pid='997988' dateline='1437315387']

Again, it is not a sacrifice to suffer if you get to be worshipped and adored forever. Remember mythological Jesus supposedly exists in heaven where his every need is catered to and angels constantly tell him how great he is. No, it wasn't a sacrifice so much as a very smart career move on his part. Besides, he set up the system of sin/hell/heaven in the first place.

It is sort of like a politician who has stripped programs to help the needy but helps out at a food bank because he knows it will earn him more votes

Quote:If Jesus is merely a man (as atheists insist), then he is simply dead, and he gained nothing. As man, he had no way to fulfill his own predictions of rising from the dead after three days. Why did he believe he would be able to rise from the dead?

IF the Jesus legends were based on a real individuals or a group of different preachers, we know nothing about him. We don't know how he-or they- died. What we do know is that many of the ancient cults that were popular in Rome were based on a god dying and being resurrected

Quote:If he was only a human and thought he would be worshiped forever simply for getting himself killed, then that was a really stupid career move...one NOT made by the founders of other great world religions.

I was discussing the mythological Jesus not a real person who existed. Sorry if I was unclear. For the mythological Christian, dying was a good career move.

Quote:Consequently, merely dying was completely unnecessary for one who was simply seeking immortality and worship.

So, is anything that happens in the bible. It was unnecessary for god to set up a system where human beings can't help but sin. Your problem is with your mythology

Quote:The crucifixion is meaningless without the resurrection. As others are fond of pointing out, LOTS of people got crucified; only one rose again as he promised in advance. Jesus' crucifixion is unique in that He predicted both his death and his resurrection in advance as EVIDENCE that He was who He claimed to be - the divine Son of God.

Jesus did not return from the dead. We don't even know if someone similar to him existed or, if he(they) did exist, that they were crucified.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:53 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:18 am)Nope Wrote: The Jesus described in the bible was fictional. You keep forgetting that we are atheists

No, I keep forgetting that a minority of atheists are Jesus Mythers.

Even other atheists mock that.

Some people believe that there might have been a real person or people that formed the basis of the Jesus mythologies. If those people are atheists then they still believe that the bible is fictional. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp? They don't think that Jesus rose from the dead, that he was a god/man born of a virgin or that most of the bible stories have any basis in fact.

Rabbi Hillel seems like a good candidate for Jesus but he certainly wasn't crucified or claimed any god like power.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:20 am)Rhythm Wrote: No, Randy, I don't need to know, because it doesn't matter to me.  I don't fear death, or what dreams may come.  No amount of threatening me with my mortality or your hell is compelling to me.  My -conscience- compels me, and I just can't be a scapegoater, or be made to be a scapegoater.  Understand?

1. Don't care -even if it were true.
2. Don't care -even if it were true.
3. Promises promises.....lol....
4. I'm not interested in a "right relationship" to a scapegoater...unless that "right relationship" is calling said scapegoater out on their bullshit....which is exactly what I do.  What's so difficult to understand about this?

Go ahead, though, tell me more, drive me further away.........as though the gap weren't already to great to be bridged.  Have we reach the terminus of your apologetic skill yet?  Is this something for which you have no argument?  Seems a glaring omission what with the subject in question being the central tenet of your faith.

If christianity were true....I couldn't, in good conscience, be a christian.  You can respond to -that-, or continue fantasizing about my death....but don't be surprised when I call you to task on your own failures, by your own standard, pursuant to your own claims.

Oh, gosh...you mean that by telling you the truth I'm actually driving you away from God for all eternity??? Golly gee, I should never say another word about Jesus so that even more people will not be turned off.



Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

(July 19, 2015 at 11:05 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:56 am)Neimenovic Wrote: No, Randy, that's what YOU believe happened. I'm only accepting your premise for the sake of argument. I'm not even convinced there was a Jesus at all, let alone one that was crucified.

I'm pointing out that dying and rising isn't dying, even if we accept your story.

Well, when you finally make up your mind, let me know.

You're just using your own indecision as a mean of avoiding the questions I will rain down on you once you have finally decided what it is that you believe.

Make up my mind?

My mind is made up. I think there was a person or multiple people who the jesus character was based on. But nothing like the biblical jesus. Definitely not your white, blue eyed pretty boy.

What question, Randy?

If that's the truth, that a scapegoating god will punish me if I don't accept it's offering?  Yes, Randy, it will.  Have I been unclear?  If your goal is to bring people to christ, confronted with a person like myself who has a non-negotiable position on vicarious redemption...then yes, you should shut your mouth about vicarious redemption...or simply accept that your actions are driving them further and further from where you think they should be. I know that the concept of responsibility and ownership is difficult for you, just look at how you hope to shirk your own justly deserved fate...but for some of us, it's important to own up to what one has wrought, be that in this life or the next. Again, either you have a response or you don't...but there's very little sense in quoting me if you don't -actually- intend to respond to me.

I'll repeat in case you missed it....

If this crucifixion business were true, if the things that -you- are claiming are true, I couldn't..... in good conscience..... be a christian.

Wheres your brilliant argument? I checked the list in your other thread.....seems to be missing there as well.

(July 19, 2015 at 10:54 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:18 am)polar bear Wrote: you are making a huge assumption.  Jesus did not die on a cross, jesus was not buried in a tomb and he did not come back to life

Then why do Roman and Jewish historians say that He died on a cross?

. Every time that I have read the documents that Christians claim prove Jesus existed, it turns out that the document writers were simply describing what Christians believe. No one is disputing that Christians existed so the documents prove nothing. If I write down what Muslims believe that doesn't also mean that I believe in their mythology

(July 19, 2015 at 11:41 am)KUSA Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:04 am)Randy Carson Wrote: The latter execution is FAR more graphic and helps us to appreciate the lengths to which God was willing to go in order to redeem us. It was a heavy price, but He paid it.

Jesus did not pay the price for our sins. The penalty for sin is to burn for eternity in hell. If Jesus wanted to pay the price then his ass would be in hell for eternity.

Incorrect. Jesus didn't simply take our place in hell; he paid a price that we were unable to pay so that we do not have to go to hell for eternity.

Quote:

Quote:If your child breaks a large bay window in a neighbor's house that he cannot possibly pay for by himself, you step in to pay the debt to the neighbor. The neighbor is satisfied and the child is no longer under obligation.

We could not possibly repay our debt to God for the sins we commit, so Jesus stepped in to pay it for us. We are absolved, and we are no longer under obligation.

The crucifixion means everything.

Bad example. A window? Let's put this into greater perspective. Let's say a vile person breaks in your house and rapes and kills your family.

Then someone steps in and pays the price for the crime. For the sake of argument let's say the person either pays for it monetarily or chooses to take the vile person's place in jail.

Would that be a just thing? Would you feel that justice was served? I mean it really doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does. Right?

I eagerly await your reply.

In our court system, part of the justice is punishment of the person who did something wrong. A murderer may be forgiven by God for his sins and go to heaven even though he is executed by lethal injection by the state which convicted him of the crime.

Now, the punishment for sin is death, but Jesus did not merely save us from punishment. He made it possible for those who have faith to be completely made new and restored to a right relationship with God. Therefore, God does not look at us as sinners who got away with something but as new creations in Christ.

Remember, the one who owns the window is God, and He alone determines what satisfies His own view of justice.

Yup, sounds like a horrid system I want no part in.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:03 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 10:54 am)Chad32 Wrote: The crucifixion is meaningless by default. Either because lots of people were crucified all the time, or because he got rewarded in heaven after he died by being worshipied. So he didn't really lose anything. He lived longer than a lot of people got to, had a really bad week, and got a higher place in heaven than the saintliest saint who ever sainted.

The crucifixion of Jesus is not "meaningless by default" precisely because of Who Jesus is. God sacrificed Himself for you.

He wasn't rewarded in heaven. He is God and not a man. Everything that exists belongs to him. What reward would he receive?

The bible is a bit mixed on whether Jesus is Yahweh, or the a different person, as he is mentioned as sitting at the right hand of god.

So what did he sacrifice? What is he lacking now that he did not lack then? aside from a physical body?