Why does Jesus' "suffering" matter?

[Nope]

I know that you are quite eager to absolve yourself from any personal responsibility for your sins, but your desire to blame God simply won't fly.

Again, I am an atheist. I do not believe in your god or in the concept of sin

It is not logically possible to have free will and no possibility of moral evil.

Your god is not all powerful. Okay, I understand now.

[Nope]

Grumble. Double posts

[Nope]

Jesus did not pay the price for our sins. The penalty for sin is to burn for eternity in hell. If Jesus wanted to pay the price then his ass would be in hell for eternity.

Incorrect. Jesus didn't simply take our place in hell; he paid a price that we were unable to pay so that we do not have to go to hell for eternity.

Bad example. A window? Let's put this into greater perspective. Let's say a vile person breaks in your house and rapes and kills your family.

Then someone steps in and pays the price for the crime. For the sake of argument let's say the person either pays for it monetarily or chooses to take the vile person's place in jail.

Would that be a just thing? Would you feel that justice was served? I mean it really doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does. Right?

I eagerly await your reply.

In our court system, part of the justice is punishment of the person who did something wrong. A murderer may be forgiven by God for his sins and go to heaven even though he is executed by lethal injection by the state which convicted him of the crime.

Now, the punishment for sin is death, but Jesus did not merely save us from punishment. He made it possible for those who have faith to be completely made new and restored to a right relationship with God. Therefore, God does not look at us as sinners who got away with something but as new creations in Christ.

Remember, the one who owns the window is God, and He alone determines what satisfies His own view of justice.

I noticed that you stuck with the window example and didn't acknowledge the worse scenario that Kusa used. If a man breaks into a house and rapes and kills everyone it would be offensive if he was set free because someone else volunteered to pay the criminal's due. If god owns the window, are you saying that god owns the family so the innocent husband's feelings don't matter?

[The Grand Nudger]

Randy doesn't know -what- he's saying, he's incompetent.  That's why he needed someone to tell him what his opinions were in the first place.

[Randy Carson]

Well, when you finally make up your mind, let me know.

You're just using your own indecision as a mean of avoiding the questions I will rain down on you once you have finally decided what it is that you believe.

Make up my mind?

My mind is made up. I think there was a person or multiple people who the jesus character was based on. But nothing like the biblical jesus. Definitely not your white, blue eyed pretty boy.

What question, Randy?

Was Jesus crucified by Pontius Pilate?

[Longhorn]

Make up my mind?

My mind is made up. I think there was a person or multiple people who the jesus character was based on. But nothing like the biblical jesus. Definitely not your white, blue eyed pretty boy.

What question, Randy?

Was Jesus crucified by Pontius Pilate?

I don't know. Which one? Are there records to prove that he was? Not fraudulent ones, mind you. I don't think so.

[Randy Carson]

If that's the truth, that a scapegoating god will punish me if I don't accept it's offering?  Yes, Randy, it will.  Have I been unclear?  If your goal is to bring people to christ, confronted with a person like myself who has a non-negotiable position on vicarious redemption...then yes, you should shut your mouth about vicarious redemption...or simply accept that your actions are driving them further and further from where you think they should be.  I know that the concept of responsibility and ownership is difficult for you, just look at how you hope to shirk your own justly deserved fate...but for some of us, it's important to own up to what one has wrought, be that in this life or the next.  Again, either you have a response or you don't...but there's very little sense in quoting me if you don't -actually- intend to respond to me.

I'll repeat in case you missed it....

If this crucifixion business were true, if the things that -you- are claiming are true, I couldn't..... in good conscience..... be a christian.

Wheres your brilliant argument?  I checked the list in your other thread.....seems to be missing there as well.

Right. Because you refuse to accept God's will. God sends His own son to die on a cross so that you might not perish but have eternal life.

But you don't like that idea. You prefer your own.

Your argument runs sort of like this:

1. If I were God, I would have done things very differently.
2. If God exists, He must agree with me.
3. Things aren't the way I would have done them.
4. Therefore, God does not exist.

But in reality, it runs like this:

1. If Rhythm were God, he would have done things differently.
2. Things aren't different.
3. Therefore, Rhythm isn't God.

[Randy Carson]

I know that you are quite eager to absolve yourself from any personal responsibility for your sins, but your desire to blame God simply won't fly.

Again, I am an atheist. I do not believe in your god or in the concept of sin

I understand. But when you are considering the Christian explanation of salvation, you do prefer blaming God for "setting up" Adam.

It is not logically possible to have free will and no possibility of moral evil.

Your god is not all powerful. Okay, I understand now.

Inability to do contradictory things is not evidence of impotence.

[Randy Carson]

Incorrect. Jesus didn't simply take our place in hell; he paid a price that we were unable to pay so that we do not have to go to hell for eternity.


In our court system, part of the justice is punishment of the person who did something wrong. A murderer may be forgiven by God for his sins and go to heaven even though he is executed by lethal injection by the state which convicted him of the crime.

Now, the punishment for sin is death, but Jesus did not merely save us from punishment. He made it possible for those who have faith to be completely made new and restored to a right relationship with God. Therefore, God does not look at us as sinners who got away with something but as new creations in Christ.

Remember, the one who owns the window is God, and He alone determines what satisfies His own view of justice.

I noticed that you stuck with the window example and didn't acknowledge the worse scenario that Kusa used. If a man breaks into a house and rapes and kills everyone it would be offensive if he was set free because someone else volunteered to pay the criminal's due. If god owns the window, are you saying that god owns the family so the innocent husband's feelings don't matter?

Sins are committed against two parties: the husband of the family that is killed and the God who created them.

Our judicial system deals with the crime; God deals with the sin.

The murderer may go to jail or be executed. He may also go to heaven.

[Nope]

Inability to do contradictory things is not evidence of impotence.

1 Corinthians 14

33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

What you wrote contradicts the bible