The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Cyberman]

Also: isn't it insultingly arrogant to treat the world and other people as things that your god uses just to talk to you? Spoiler alert: you aren't that special, the world doesn't revolve around you and - shock, horror - other people have lives of their own that actually have nothing to do with yours.

[Whateverist]

Also: isn't it insultingly arrogant to treat the world and other people as things that your god uses just to talk to you? 

Hint for Rekeisha:

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The answer is yes.  You are arrogant.

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[Rekeisha]

I think you missed read me again I said that faith in God is not based in feelings. I believe you when you say that you felt on fire for God. I am saying that faith in God transends emotions and feeling.  If I had to rely on my feelings then I wouldn't believe. I don't believe because it makes me feel good, I believe because it is the truth and I know God. My foundation is God, christ His crucifixion and ressurection for the forgiveness of my sin. That doesn't make me fanatical just a christian.  

When I was in college I was in gross sin and that is one of the most painful times of my life. Partly because the image I had about myself was being destroyed and partly because I hated my sin. I hate sin it ruines everything. I hate seeing it in me and I hate the affects it has on this world. If the only difference between you then and you now is your lack of religion then you weren't born again. You were never changed. If you were truly born again then you would be a new creation. Your desires change and slowly or quickly you become more christ like. God doesn't just save us from the wrath of God but also from the hold on sin on our lives.

To tell you the truth, it makes me pretty angry that you would say I was not "really" saved, when I am sitting here telling you that I felt just as you do, that I had the same delusions I can see clearly in your words. If you had spoken to me six months before I deconverted, not one word I said would have been a shred different than the phrases and ideas you are using, now.

No honest person says that they have evidence of Christianity. Otherwise it would not require faith. Even theologians say this.

You don't get to say it's "not based in feelings", then say it "transcends" feelings by describing your faith as something other than a feeling. Faith is a feeling, and based on feelings, not actual evidence. Even Paul described it as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". Hope... a feeling. You believe because you feel  it is the truth. You do not have proofs, in the mathematical or logical sense, or it would not be faith, it would be proof. Faith would become irrelevant.

What you are really saying here is that because you feel so strongly the things you feel, that makes them rise to the level of evidence. But it's just not how it works. Indeed, your entire response is rife with "the feels". Let's have a look:

"your desires change"

"the image I had about myself"

"I hated my sin"..."I hate sin"

Clearly, you have a strong emotional attachment to the guilt-trip  that is inherent to your form of religion, a religion that has convinced you that you are an evil person, and that it has the solution if you will only accept what a terrible person you are. This idea has been drilled into your head until you cannot even see yourself another way. You are the voice of psychological breakdown and Stockholm Syndrome-type programming, worshiping the very thing that has crippled you. It breaks my heart for you!

They tell you you are a terrible person, and you believe them. They tell you they have the answer, if you will just Obey, and you believe them. Your beliefs are indistinguishable from those of a cult. I dare you to consider that possibility for a moment.

But here's the real Good News: there is nothing wrong with you!

Nothing! You're just a normal, conscientious, decent-and-flawed human being. Your mind has been clouded by control cults that sell conformity in the name of Godliness.

But if you look closely--the definition of "what is Godly" has changed over time, by those very same church leaders, to suit whatever will make their flocks feel most guilty and therefore penitent, plient, and pacific. At one time, "God" said it was okay to own slaves. At one time, "God" said that genocide was okay. At one time, "God" said that a woman who was raped was just damaged property, and recompense could be paid to her father (or if she was engaged, to the betrothed). And much, much more. So many horrible things.

If you were saved then you would still be saved now. You may have felt saved but if you were born again you may wonder but you would never fully denounce your faith in God. Some people feel like they are bees but they are not bees. You may feel like you and I have the same kind of faith but we don't. I don't feel like a woman I am. I don't feel like I am married I am.  As a Christian I do have feeling because I am human but sometime I don't feel like doing everything that God has called me to do.
 
Here is how Faith and hope are defined in Hebrews 11:1
 
faith: πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
This faith isn't a mental exercise but it works. I do things because of my faith in God and I say things I may not say or do because I know that God will come through. I signed up to go on a mission trip to Ireland this year and Had faith that God would supply the funds and He did over and abundantly. I return to this forum to "talk" about Jesus because I have faith that God will do a work in the lives of people on this forum.
 
Hope: ἐλπίζω elpízō, el-pid'-zo; from G1680; to expect or confide:—(have, thing) hope(-d) (for), trust.
This is like I hope the sun comes up. I fully expect the sun to come up tomorrow because I have seen it before. I have hope in God because I have seen Him work in the past.
 
Romans 6:8-11 Lets look at the words used in these verses.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul doesn't say since we feel like Christ was raised from the dead. It says since we know. (The definition for know is †εἴδω eídō, i'-do; a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:—be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700.)

As well it doesn't say in verse 10 feel as though you are dead to sin and try your hardest no to do what you wish you could. It says count yourselves dead to sin (the definition for count is λογίζομαι logízomai, log-id'-zom-ahee; middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):—conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).)
 
These verses are not telling you to base your beliefs on how you feel but on what is real. There is an actual historical Jesus and he was crucified and rose from the dead for the forgiveness of sins and anyone who accepts  this gift, by repenting and accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, will have salvation. There feelings about their salvation will not have any effect on their salvation.

I appreciate you trying to make me feel better. I promise you low self-esteem is not a problem of mine. What I think is interesting though is that you say there is nothing wrong with me then say that we are all flawed. If we have a flaw then that means there there has to be a standard of perfection. God is that standard. He hasn't changed even though you and others may think that certain account in the bible show that He has. With Him as the standard we can see our need and there is nothing wrong with seeing that we have a need. It is what we do with that information that determines wither our flaws will be corrected or be our down fall.

[Cyberman]

Why are you referring back to a book? I thought you had a special relationship with this god?

[Redbeard The Pink]

To tell you the truth, it makes me pretty angry that you would say I was not "really" saved, when I am sitting here telling you that I felt just as you do, that I had the same delusions I can see clearly in your words. If you had spoken to me six months before I deconverted, not one word I said would have been a shred different than the phrases and ideas you are using, now.

No honest person says that they have evidence of Christianity. Otherwise it would not require faith. Even theologians say this.

You don't get to say it's "not based in feelings", then say it "transcends" feelings by describing your faith as something other than a feeling. Faith is a feeling, and based on feelings, not actual evidence. Even Paul described it as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". Hope... a feeling. You believe because you feel  it is the truth. You do not have proofs, in the mathematical or logical sense, or it would not be faith, it would be proof. Faith would become irrelevant.

What you are really saying here is that because you feel so strongly the things you feel, that makes them rise to the level of evidence. But it's just not how it works. Indeed, your entire response is rife with "the feels". Let's have a look:

"your desires change"

"the image I had about myself"

"I hated my sin"..."I hate sin"

Clearly, you have a strong emotional attachment to the guilt-trip  that is inherent to your form of religion, a religion that has convinced you that you are an evil person, and that it has the solution if you will only accept what a terrible person you are. This idea has been drilled into your head until you cannot even see yourself another way. You are the voice of psychological breakdown and Stockholm Syndrome-type programming, worshiping the very thing that has crippled you. It breaks my heart for you!

They tell you you are a terrible person, and you believe them. They tell you they have the answer, if you will just Obey, and you believe them. Your beliefs are indistinguishable from those of a cult. I dare you to consider that possibility for a moment.

But here's the real Good News: there is nothing wrong with you!

Nothing! You're just a normal, conscientious, decent-and-flawed human being. Your mind has been clouded by control cults that sell conformity in the name of Godliness.

But if you look closely--the definition of "what is Godly" has changed over time, by those very same church leaders, to suit whatever will make their flocks feel most guilty and therefore penitent, plient, and pacific. At one time, "God" said it was okay to own slaves. At one time, "God" said that genocide was okay. At one time, "God" said that a woman who was raped was just damaged property, and recompense could be paid to her father (or if she was engaged, to the betrothed). And much, much more. So many horrible things.

If you were saved then you would still be saved now. You may have felt saved but if you were born again you may wonder but you would never fully denounce your faith in God. Some people feel like they are bees but they are not bees. You may feel like you and I have the same kind of faith but we don't. I don't feel like a woman I am. I don't feel like I am married I am.  As a Christian I do have feeling because I am human but sometime I don't feel like doing everything that God has called me to do.
 
Here is how Faith and hope are defined in Hebrews 11:1
 
faith: πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
This faith isn't a mental exercise but it works. I do things because of my faith in God and I say things I may not say or do because I know that God will come through. I signed up to go on a mission trip to Ireland this year and Had faith that God would supply the funds and He did over and abundantly. I return to this forum to "talk" about Jesus because I have faith that God will do a work in the lives of people on this forum.
 
Hope: ἐλπίζω elpízō, el-pid'-zo; from G1680; to expect or confide:—(have, thing) hope(-d) (for), trust.
This is like I hope the sun comes up. I fully expect the sun to come up tomorrow because I have seen it before. I have hope in God because I have seen Him work in the past.
 
Romans 6:8-11 Lets look at the words used in these verses.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul doesn't say since we feel like Christ was raised from the dead. It says since we know. (The definition for know is †εἴδω eídō, i'-do; a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:—be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700.)

As well it doesn't say in verse 10 feel as though you are dead to sin and try your hardest no to do what you wish you could. It says count yourselves dead to sin (the definition for count is λογίζομαι logízomai, log-id'-zom-ahee; middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):—conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).)
 
These verses are not telling you to base your beliefs on how you feel but on what is real. There is an actual historical Jesus and he was crucified and rose from the dead for the forgiveness of sins and anyone who accepts  this gift, by repenting and accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, will have salvation. There feelings about their salvation will not have any effect on their salvation.

I appreciate you trying to make me feel better. I promise you low self-esteem is not a problem of mine. What I think is interesting though is that you say there is nothing wrong with me then say that we are all flawed. If we have a flaw then that means there there has to be a standard of perfection. God is that standard. He hasn't changed even though you and others may think that certain account in the bible show that He has. With Him as the standard we can see our need and there is nothing wrong with seeing that we have a need. It is what we do with that information that determines wither our flaws will be corrected or be our down fall.

Yeah yeah...and I used to think faith was the ability to rely on one's "spiritual senses" with the same clarity and acceptance that one normally attributes to the physical senses. I used this special ability to save souls, cast ghosts out of houses, and activate special prayer rituals that put black magic practitioners into comas. My confirmation bias and level of indoctrination had me thinking all kinds of things about faith, what it is, and how it worked. I was DEEP into ministry. For you to say I (or anyone else, for that matter) wasn't a "true Christian" is a fallacy and a statement of ignorance. I didn't just have my faith, I shared it with others and used it to "help" them. The strongest doubts I had prior to my late 20s occurred when I was a young boy, but throughout my teens and early 20s I was very devout. Lack of faith wasn't what made me stop believing; critical thinking was.


Your personal interpretation of the biblical definition of faith is basically worthless. Faith, as most people use and define it in theological debates, is the belief in something without evidence that justifies that belief. Period. Your experience might justify that belief to you, but it shouldn't, and it sure as hell shouldn't justify that belief to someone else.

[dyresand]

jesus was a cunt his father was a cunt his mother was a cunt his creator/himself as god was a cunt everyone around was a cunt the romans weren't bad people but everyone else was a fucking cunt
Everyone in the bible and the bible writers were cunts.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

*sigh* That's why I called it a "no True Scotsman" fallacy. A person can believe they are "truly saved" as fiercely as you do now, just as Redbeard and I did, and realize they are deluding themselves, and give it up. I know that your religious indoctrination includes the idea that a person who is really really Saved is a "new person", and cannot give it up, but ... what else would you expect a religion to say?

When I say that you are flawed and there is nothing wrong with you, I mean exactly that. There is no ultimate perfection; nature doesn't work that way, and neither do people. Holding up some imaginary idea of perfection that you can never quite meet (but hey, keep trying; it's your fault when you fail!) is the entire psychological ploy that keeps Christians subjugated, and doubting their own worth except through the religion, which is why it is so hard for people like you to give it up even for the moment it takes to "think outside the box".

We do not need religion to treat our fellow human beings well, to learn to overcome our animal instincts and seek a higher good, or to think we're exactly what we were meant to be-- flawed, reasoning beings, who can grow and improve, and have inherent worth without some arbitrary standard from a magic sky-man and his mammalian "son".

I reject your religion's entire notion of "sin", as I think it is clearly based on barbaric Bronze- and Iron-Age ideologies that modern understandings of human dignity and worth have far exceeded. To help you grasp what I'm getting at, I'll leave you with the words of one of my favorite sci-fi authors:

"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there." -Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice

"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it." - Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid." -Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

[robvalue]

Theology: Making up stuff that can't be falsified.

[Rekeisha]

Again if you were a true Christan in you past then you would be one today. Your salvation is not based on you or what you can do but on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you never had a relationship with God or you don't have one now then you were never a Christian.

Stimbo: I referenced the Bible because it is the revealed word of God.
Redbeard: Was your account a norm in your daily "Christian" life? Those people who define faith as just a feeling without anything to back it up are defining it incorrectly. I used the bibles definition because it is God's word.
Rob: if stuff is being made up then you can prove it wrong
Rocketsurgen: your statement of flawed but there is nothing wrong with you is a contradiction. You either have nothing wrong with you or you are flawed you can't have both. If you say you are prefect then you are arrogant and if you are flawed then you have to be comparing yourself to a standard. Everyone knows there is a standard even if they don't agree on what that standard is. This is because we are made in the image of God and we instinctively know that we aren't what we are supposed to be.

[Cyberman]

But we weren't discussing any revealed word. You said that you have dreams, impressions, ideas and thoughts that you attribute to "God". What does any "revealed word" have to do with that?