Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion!

[GrandizerII]

Yes, I watched the Ehrman-vs-InfidelGuy video you linked to. Ehrman speaks of Paul's writings as indicating that Paul's "throwaway" comments about James the brother of Jesus indicates to him that Paul knew the friends and family of Jesus. That may well be the case, but it is nevertheless an inference. Again, and I want to make this plain since you seem to be arguing as though I think Jesus didn't exist: I am convinced by the totality of the circumstantial evidence that Jesus was a real person. [emphasis added]  The place where he says it's "hard" evidence seemed not to be a statement of fact, but exasperation at InfidelGuy's aggressive and repeated claim that Jesus never existed, an emotional retort rather than a statement of historical fact, if you will, which is why Ehrman launched into discussions of things like the existence of Julius Caesar and the Holocaust.

As a believer, I'm often appalled by the things which some Christians say and do thereby causing God's name to be blasphemed among non-believers.

As a non-believer, do you ever cringe upon reading the stupid things that Jesus Mythicists say in this forum and elsewhere which bring the credibility of atheism into question?

Yes, Jesus mythicists (not here in this forum necessarily but in general) do tend to say some really silly shit that makes you wonder whether they've really done proper research in fields like this, but I have very similar thoughts about Christian theists in general who say that the resurrection of Jesus is historically well-established. Please, you're no better than they.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

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Yes, I do sometimes cringe. But that's why we have discussions about these kinds of things. And I don't expect them to change their minds except in the face of solid evidence (or at least, a more-coherent argument to the contrary)... but I do expect them to change their minds, because that's what intellectually honest people do.

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Your honesty is refreshing. I wish more members of this forum posted as thoughtfully. You're wading in a very shallow pool.

I often take a moment at CAF to correct a newbie Catholic apologist who is either overstating the Christian position - or simply has something wrong. I think you would agree that if we're going to make a case for our respective points of view, we ought to do it well, eh?

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Atheism isn't a coherent group, so it's not really possible to "bring the credibility of atheism into question", as you suggest. If an individual atheist bases his ideas on something that's not solid, as one  of the reasons they reject religion, that's on them.

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Agreed, but have you noticed how often the forest is mistaken for the tree(s) when it comes to Christianity in this forum? Westboro Baptist. Pat Robertson. A pedophile priest. ALL Christians...and Christ Himself for that matter...are tarred and feathered because of the actions or words of these few individuals or small groups. Just this past week or so, Christianity has been mocked because of the Rapture - an 19th century Proestant novelty. And if I take pains to point out that Catholics do not believe in the rapture, then I get cries of the "no true Scot" fallacy thrown at me.

No one here (that I can see) is arguing for Jesus Mythicism. Why does this strawman keep popping up?

Redbeard is a mythicist. So is Minimalist. And a large majority of the forum members are ambivalent or agnostic on this subject, at best. It's intellectually lazy...if Jesus never existed, then there is no reason to think more deeply. If he did, then there is much more work to be done. No one wants to do that. Like Jenny's assertion that the Shroud is a forgery. Or the idea that there is no tomb of Peter under St. Peter's in Rome. Folks read articles (well, one at least) that presupposes what they already want to believe, and that's as far as their knowledge goes.

Aractus, Ehrman, and O'Neill aren't afraid to admit that scholarship favors Christianity - at least as far as Jesus' historical existence goes.

We can't ever seriously discuss what Jesus said and did until we have first agreed that Jesus even existed. Otherwise, we invariably get to the point at which the believer's debate victory is at hand...only to have the mythicist play "Jesus never really existed anyway" as his "get out of this hot seat free" card.

I don't think Redbeard is a mythicist, but I think Min is... I'm trying to recall accurately so I don't slander (libel) him, here. But your point is taken. I agree about the laziness argument, in general, but most just don't care enough to work at it the way some of us do. 

This may strike you as dishonest, but I think you need to realize the sheer amount of work it would take for us to disprove all  of the religious claims out there. How much effort have you put into proving Krishna is not what the Hindus claim?

And I also disagree about "we can't ever seriously discuss what Jesus said and did until we have first agreed that Jesus even existed", since it's irrelevant whether he existed when discussing the CLAIMS made about this character. And just like Krishna, it doesn't matter whether he existed in history when discussing whether he was involved in something that resembles an intergalactic war against alien invaders, with combat aircraft and missiles, lasers and nukes, as the stories seem to imply, as told in the Mahabharata.

[Losty]

credibility of atheism

What?

[pocaracas]

yeah... but there were several alleged bishops/priests preaching a slightly different message, on several places.

<clipped for clarity>

how can we tell that the true teachings of Jesus are the ones preached by the catholic church?
The notion of the trinity comes well after the fact - would this view still be held, if the roman christians hadn't accepted Paul's teachings?

And yes, I know I'm mixing a bunch of stuff into one bag, but, like you know so well, it's a broad subject.

Simple enough, poca.

The bishops who disagreed with one another held councils to consider these matters. After much discussion and debate, some ideas were identified as orthodox and others were judged heretical.

It isn't like Rubio, Cruz, Trump and Bush all espousing slightly different variations of a "conservative" message that you can pick and choose from. In the case of theology, some things are right and some things are wrong. Others are uncertain and left as open questions.

When Arius put forth his ideas, Athanasius stood against him. It took awhile, but Athanasius' views ultimately carried the day.

And yet, in the 8th century, across the pond, in Egypt, some people - not any people, but monks - still used the gospel by Peter.
I'm thinking those councils didn't work so well, even after the first one, at Nicea... who can say anything about what happened before this one?

And you said it right: some things are right, some things are wrong - what sort of god leaves so much to be guessed by upcoming theologians? How accurate are the guesses of the church of Rome, considering all that was indeed guessed about Jesus at the time?
I'm guessing this god failed utterly to properly convey his message... again!
Where did he convey it? Jerusalem.... is now Jewish, like it was before Jesus... but spent some time being muslim... oh, christianity never took off in there, huh? I wonder why...

Why do people follow such a failure of a god?

[downbeatplumb]

All this time here and you still don't know what atheism is.
I won't tell you again, it tires me to repeat the same things to the same people over and over again.

Are you ever embarrassed by stupid arguments made by people who don't believe that God exists in their efforts to disprove theism?

What stupid arguments are these pray tell?

[Shining_Finger]

You want a Sacraficial Lamb to prove that your God exists?
Pray for him to kill me.
I will reply if you ask me if I am still alive.
That rules out at the very least a God that wishes to prove his presence, as it could just as easily stop me from replying to you as kill me.

Still Alive.

[Aractus]

Yes I know, but she also mentioned that his existence was not universally accepted.

Right so the case for Socrates is not universally accepted, but the case for Jesus is. What's your point?

But you cant prove it, just make a case. this is the point.

I have said that many times. It has been established beyond the doubt of the vast majority of modern scholars.

I disagree. The evidence I have seen for Jesus seems to be weak. But then I must repeat my position that I think there probably was a historical jesus, but this is just my opinion and I could not support his existence to my satisfatction.

Well you are not a historian and cannot decide whether the case for his existence is strong or weak.

Let's take James and his clear references to the sayings of Jesus - each taken individually it isn't a particularly strong or convincing reason to believe the sayings have pre-existed. But the fact he does it so many times makes the case extremely strong.

Someone else.

Who? And how is James referencing it before it was invented and written down 35 years later (according to your point of view)?

[Bob Kelso]

As a believer, I'm often appalled by the things which some Christians say and do thereby causing God's name to be blasphemed among non-believers.

As a non-believer, do you ever cringe upon reading the stupid things that Jesus Mythicists say in this forum and elsewhere which bring the credibility of atheism into question?

*my edits*

Jesus fucking Christ, Randy. 

How many fucking times have you been told what atheism is and is not? 

You blithering, disingenuous, ass.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

As a believer, I'm often appalled by the things which some Christians say and do thereby causing God's name to be blasphemed among non-believers.

As a non-believer, do you ever cringe upon reading the stupid things that Jesus Mythicists say in this forum and elsewhere which bring the credibility of atheism into question?

*my edits*

Jesus fucking Christ, Randy. 

How many fucking times have you been told what atheism is and is not? 

You blithering, disingenuous, ass.

C'mon, SD, don't hold back.

Tell him how you really feel!

[Aractus]

Firstly, it's not I who said there is "hard evidence" it is NT scholars like Erhman and Hurtado. And I've previously provided links to where both of them have said explicitly that there is hard evidence.

Yes, I watched the Ehrman-vs-InfidelGuy video you linked to. Ehrman speaks of Paul's writings as indicating that Paul's "throwaway" comments about James the brother of Jesus indicates to him that Paul knew the friends and family of Jesus. That may well be the case, but it is nevertheless an inference. Again, and I want to make this plain since you seem to be arguing as though I think Jesus didn't exist: I am convinced by the totality of the circumstantial evidence that Jesus was a real person.  The place where he says it's "hard" evidence seemed not to be a statement of fact, but exasperation at InfidelGuy's aggressive and repeated claim that Jesus never existed, an emotional retort rather than a statement of historical fact, if you will, which is why Ehrman launched into discussions of things like the existence of Julius Caesar and the Holocaust.

Secondly, what qualifies you to say the evidence is "weak"?

Because I can read, and my brain works?

If you must make an inference about a piece of evidence, rather than it producing an inescapable conclusion, then it is weak evidence. We must infer that Paul's comments indicate he knew James, et al., and we must infer  that Tacitus got his information from an official source, rather than just passing on Christian convicts' comments secondhand, it we're to say it proves anything than what the soon-to-be-martyrs thought. Same goes with Josephus. Neither of them directly proves anything unless we have positive evidence of the official Roman records of the crucifixion, which we do not, and there are several elements that render an "official records" concept dubious, which we have discussed.

You don't know what you're talking about. You have no idea about the content of the New Testament. There no "inference" - the gospels explicitly name James as a brother, as does Acts, as does Jude. Paul's comment confirms it absolutely (or as absolute as we can get for ancient matters).

Hurtado wrote the book on the early Christian church (literally - it's used as a textbook in academic studies).

"Indeed, the New Testament itself can be thought of as a ‘macro-example’ of the interactive diversity of this period. One of the broadly agreed results of modern New Testament studies is the recognition that the New Testament comprises writings of varied outlooks and emphases, even significantly different points of view in some matters, these writings probably reflecting distinguishable circles and versions of early Christianity." Hurtado, 2013.

A little over two weeks ago, I naively posted on reports of re-emergence of the early 20th-century claims (back then made by a few journalists and writers, none of them competent in the fields involved) that “Jesus” was an entirely mythical/legendary figure, and that no “Jesus of Nazareth” ever lived.   Along with the view of pretty near all scholars in the field, I expressed surprise and a certain weariness that a claim rather effectively considered and refuted many decades ago was making the rounds again as if it were new and had any strong merit.  Immediately, there were urgent comments from supporters of the so-called “mythicist” Jesus line, some of them in reasonable tones, many of them scurrilous, angry, haughty, disdainful, and most of these latter types I simply deleted.  Those who made assertions that could be engaged, however, I have typically responded to, trying as patiently as I could to explain briefly what scholars tend to hold, with selected illustrative data that they draw upon (but I have to say that patience is a virtue that I have to work at).

Some of those who have commented seem to be preoccupied with this issue, and it appears that there are a few blog sites out there pretty much devoted to the matter (especially, it seems, devoted to promoting/defending the “mythicist” point of view), and trying to question the basis of dominant scholarly views.  But, after two weeks of to-and-fro on the issue, I think it’s time to move on.  I say this for two main reasons.

First, in the two weeks of comments/responses to my postings, I’ve seen nothing cited by way of new evidence or analysis of known evidence that comprises a new and sufficient basis to treat the latest re-assertion of the “mythicist” Jesus claim as any more credible than the earlier versions refuted decades ago.  I’ve asked for such, but I don’t see any.  Some have claimed that the current wave of popular-oriented books offer such, but in spite of repeated invitations to point out briefly and specifically the supposed evidence and new reasons, I don’t recall any forthcoming.

Instead, what we have are many unsupported assertions (e.g., about Paul, early Christianity, ancient Judaism, Pharisees, etc.), put forth often with surprising confidence, but for which there is scant support in relevant scholarly circles, often out-dated generalizations, and distortions (albeit perhaps unintentional) of evidence.   I’ve taken the trouble repeatedly to point out these errors in responses to comments, although it’s not clear that it’s had any effect on those who asserted the errors in question.

So, for example, a few have challenged whether the early Jesus-movement was really a Jesus-movement after all, proposing that it may have been simply a (vaguely alleged) eschatological sect that later came to adopt a Jesus-figure (of imagination) as its iconic centre.  Having devoted a good many years, and resulting pages, to the matter of how Jesus featured in earliest Christianity, with pretty much every other scholar who has considered the question, I have to say that doesn’t fly.  For the fuller reasons and argument behind this view of things, you’ll have to read some books, among them my own:  esp. Lord Jesus Christ:  Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity (2003), and How on Earth did Jesus Become a God? (2005).  (I hasten to add that, unlike the works cited by “mythicist” advocates,  these and the other books to which I have referred are the sort that have been widely reviewed by other scholars in various countries and from various perspectives, and have been subjected to the most detailed attention in scholarly conferences and symposia.  They haven’t necessarily survived without criticism on some points, as you’d expect, but they’ve certainly been examined in detail, and were published precisely to invite such critical analysis.)

Others  have noted rightly that some matters widely held by scholars are inferences drawn from evidence, and have urged that it is possible to imagine some other inference here and there.  To these I’ve tried to indicate briefly why it is that scholars tend to prefer certain inferences as more likely than others.  It’s been disappointing that sometimes the response has been an unfair accusation that I haven’t given a basis for scholarly views.  I have, and repeatedly, but necessarily in abbreviated form, and I have urged seriously interested people to work through the scholarly studies where the fuller analysis and arguments are presented.

Part of the problem may be an insufficient acquaintance with how historians work with the limited data available.  Let me illustrate this by analogous examples.  To someone with limited acquaintance with ancient historical matters, it may seem impressive, for example, to learn that no writing by Jesus survives, or that a contemporary Jew such as Philo of Alexandria doesn’t mention him.   So, one might buy the accusation that people posit a historical figure named Jesus without any (or adequate) basis and out of insufficiently examined bias.  But, actually, the situation isn’t really so unique.

For a “pagan” example, take Apollonius of Tyana, for knowledge of whom we have almost exclusively a “Life” of the figure written by Philostratus, completed sometime in the early 3rd century CE.  Per Philostratus, Apollonius lived in the early-mid first century CE, which means that our earliest text about him was composed some 150+ years after the putative date of his death.  Yet, although there are many questions about exactly what he was and did, most scholars readily accept that there was such a figure.  Philostratus’ “Life” is full of miraculous accounts that generate some doubts about them,  and Apollonius is presented as a divine-like figure, but behind the account most scholars think there was a historical Apollonius, and that he likely had some following.

To point to Jewish examples, let’s consider Akiva, the great early rabbinic figure typically thought to have been active in the time of the Bar Kochba revolt (132-135 CE).  Our earliest texts mentioning him are rabbinic writings, the earliest layer of which (Mishnah) may have been composed ca. 200 CE(?).  We have anecdotes about Akiva, but large gaps in biographical information.  Nevertheless, I think pretty much every scholar who has considered the matter judges that he’s a real historical figure and was of some significance.

As yet another example, let’s take Hillel, typically posited as living sometime first century BCE.  He left no writings, and no contemporary mentions him (no reference in Philo, or Josephus, for example), and our earliest texts mentioning him are, again, rabbinic material, from sometime after ca. 200 CE, well over 200 years after his death.  But Hillel is pretty important in Jewish tradition, and scholars (whatever their religious stance) tend to think that he lived and obviously made an impact sufficient to generate traditions about him.

You see?  In positing a Jesus of Nazareth, there’s no funny business, no special pleading, no unique moves going on.  It’s pretty much the same sort of historical reasoning that we have in these and other cases of ancient figures, particularly those of major significance.  So, when scholars don’t react excitedly to people noting, for example, that the earliest extant narrative accounts of Jesus were written ca. 40-50 years after his death, it’s essentially because this isn’t unique.  In fact, the date of the gospel accounts in relationship to the time of Jesus is comparatively pretty close.  And when we note the abundant references to Jesus in Paul’s letters, dated ca. 50-60 CE (specifically, references to Jesus as born a Jew and ministering among Jews, crucified, examples of his teaching), we have even stronger basis for thinking that Jesus wasn’t some legend composed wholecloth by the gospel writers.

In the discussion I several times asked that proponents of a “mythicist” Jesus view provide the detailed analysis of the evidence that scholars are required to produce to make any impact.  I may not have made myself clear, and one or two respondents seem to have thought what I wanted was the sort of lengthy (inadequately supported and ill-informed) blog-comment they sent.  But serious scholarly work won’t get done in blog-comments.  The way things work is that those who seek to influence scholarly/informed opinion (1) do the hard work involved in mastering the evidence and scholarly procedures, (2) produce sufficiently informed and well-argued cases that are directed to those competent to judge matters, (3) these are reviewed and assessed by fellow scholars (and, as anyone who has been so assessed can vouch, it isn’t an easy ride), and (4) if found persuasive, or at least a cogent alternative view, the work gets recognized and its views treated as worth the time of scholars.

From a recent blog comment, it appears that Thomas Brodie (a NT scholar based in Ireland) has forthcoming a book in which he presents his own distinctive proposal that the gospel accounts of Jesus are heavily shaped by narratives of OT figures, and the “Jesus” of the gospels is, thus, essentially a literary figure.  Here’s the URL on the book: http://www.sheffieldphoenix.com/showbook.asp?bkid=217

When Brodie’s book appears, it should receive close scholarly attention and review, and we’ll see what is made of it by other scholars with sufficient expertise to assess it.  But nothing of any weight has been produced in the last two weeks of discussion here to call into question the dominant judgement of scholars that “Jesus of Nazareth” is a real figure of history who generated a following during his own lifetime, and was executed by crucifixion.  So, for now, let’s move on, and await whatever future scholarly discussion produces.

The second reason for doing so is that I’ve got a lot of other things to do besides try repeatedly to explain scholarly views and correct mis-understandings of them and the evidence on this matter.    For example, I still haven’t finished that essay on early Christian apocrypha that I had started on two weeks ago!

So, best wishes to all those who read and interacted with me on the matter, and let’s see where things go in scholarly debate hereafter.

Hurtado's blog

As you clearly see in that posting, Hurtado clearly says there is strong evidence for the historicity of Jesus, much stronger than that for other ancient figures of similar prominence.

If you're going to disagree you need to provide a reference. You need historians that are respected and work in the relevant fields to say that the evidence is weak, not merely assert it on your own authority.

In this one post alone I've given you a detailed explanation from a scholar, I've given you a peer review Journal article, and a link to the book on early Christianity. You've provided nothing at all to back up your claim that the evidence for the historical existence of Jesus is "weak".