Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion!

[robvalue]

Well as this has turned into a train wreck, let me have some fun by randomly explaining why I'm not too interested in what christian bible scholars have to say about Jesus:





PS: I'm sorry if I was rude Aractus.

[Aractus]

In the first century no one anywhere in the world had EVER written a novel. If you have evidence to counter that statement then produce it.

I posed a question, a few posts above...
Here is the answer:

Taken from http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/lostc...lantis.htm

The story of Atlantis comes to us from Timaeus, a Socratic dialogue, written in about 360 B.C. by Plato. There are four people at this meeting who had met the previous day to hear Socrates describes the ideal state. Socrates wants Timaeus of Locri, Hermocrates, and Critias to tell him stories about Athens interacting with other states.

[...]

And now for Plato's account of Atlantis as translated by Benjamin Jowett.

   Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.
...

If this is not fiction... I know not what fiction is...

It doesn't matter if it's fiction or fact, what I said is that no one had written down anything (besides poetry) that was fiction and presented it as fiction. Plato didn't do this. Herodotus didn't do it either when he wrote "the pyramids were built by slaves". He based it on contemporary (at the time) information he was given. We don't read that inaccuracy and say "he was writing a novel". Historians say that Herodotus was a serious historian. Luke claims to have based his gospel on pre-existing information also. I've already mentioned - many times now - how legend can develop quite quickly and find its way interwoven to historical events. This happened with Ned Kelly, for example.

We know that embellishments were written down in the Bible - I'm not saying they weren't. But that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't deliver the Sermon on the Mount.

[pocaracas]

I posed a question, a few posts above...
Here is the answer:

Taken from http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/lostc...lantis.htm

If this is not fiction... I know not what fiction is...

It doesn't matter if it's fiction or fact, what I said is that no one had written down anything (besides poetry) that was fiction and presented it as fiction. Plato didn't do this.

Then... what did Plato do with this story of Atlantis?
Is it poetry? To my untrained eye, it doesn't look like it.
Is it presented as fact? many fictional books present their stories as facts...
We do know that theater was an important part of greek life - are we to assume that all plays were either poetry or recounting real events?

[The Grand Nudger]

Emphasis is mine, I italicized the claim.....bold and ital the subsequent conclusion.  That's a hell of a stretch, don't you think?  There are plenty of things written in the first person that no human being has -ever- had any experience of.  In fact, there's an entire genre......fiction.

No it isn't because the entire gospel of Luke and Acts 1-12 is written in the third-person. So there is a very clear difference.

....and.....?

We are not talking about fiction. The genre of fiction had not been invented at the time. There were no novels. You might question what are 'fictitious elements', but that's not the same.

What I've consistently expressed is the point of view of historians who do the work to work out what is history and what is embellishment.

Novels can be written in first or third person. But ancient works are written in different styles pertaining to whether they are recording contemporary or ancient records. This is noted by scholars and used as a tool to help determine what the author "knows" and what they were "told".

Really?  The genre of fiction was invented the first time Uncle Ogg said to Auntie Ugg "No, really, it's -that- big", to claim otherwise is complete and utter silliness. If I was being -very- generous, I'd say we're discussing a narrative that does not rise above fiction, regardless of what the author may have intended. Personally, I couldn't defend a position that required me to first claim absurdity, only to waffle immediately on the same item. Was there no fiction, or some fiction?

[Mr Greene]

I'm afraid that's not really true. You might want to reconsider your sources. They are not as credible as you might think.

I made several point. Exactly which of them is not true and on what do you base your assessment?

You'd first have to provide an astrological source for the period in question that references southern hemisphere constellations.
Presumably African and not insurmountable, however you then include something about a specific line of latitude in relation to the sun. Why would that be special? It isn't clearly marked on the sky, I think someone has done a lot of retro-fitting to produce something that is rather obviously anachronistic.

Also if fiction wasn't around what exactly was being performed in the Greek Odeons?

[Cyberman]

I think someone should have told Homer as well.