Muslims

[Napoléon]

I want to accept people. I support the refugees coming to the US. But it's scary when I think of how many of them would make up any of these percentages.

So do I. 

But what a lot of people don't understand is that me saying "stop letting in every single damn refugee" doesn't automatically mean I'm unsympathetic to their ordeals, or that I think we shouldn't take some of them in.

Nigel Farage, along with many other sensible people, was branded a loon for saying that ISIS would use such a refugee crisis to 'infiltrate the west', even when this is exactly what ISIS told us all it's what they'd do. He spoke in the European parliament in May to warn about these security issues and how the refugee crisis would potentially lead to disaster, and he was literally laughed at by other members of the European parliament.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVNYR9CxWmY

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And even after the events in Paris people are viewing the world through rose-tinted glasses and pretending like the incident couldn't have been avoided if we had better control of the borders in Europe. The main reason the ringleader of the Paris attacks got away with what he did was because of Europe's lax freedom of movement laws, and it's exactly these kinds of freedoms I refer to when I say these Islamic fucktards are making use of our freedoms to fuck us over.

It fucking baffles me, it really does. I actually think the Torie's much criticised approach to the whole refugee crisis is the right one. Help build refugee camps in Syria. By all means. But why is it Europe's responsibility to take in every unidentifiable lunatic that is crossing the Mediterranean? A bunch of refugees that might well be in trouble, but that all come from a culture completely alien to the West. 

Yes. Let them all in for the good of the world and see how much 'good' it actually does.

[Rhondazvous]

What sucks?

That so many of them are like that. It's so much easier thinking bad Muslim people are just a tiny minority. It's like I keep being made aware of how bad it really is, and it's all very discouraging. And scary. I just wonder if the good Muslims out there know that this is how it is? I can't imagine any of my friends making up any of those percentages... at least I really really hope not. But I hate to say I just don't know anymore.

I’m ambivalent about the refugees. On the top level, I say don’t let them in. but if they do let them in, we private citizens should not harass and persecute them.

I am reminded of an episode of the Jeffersons where a burglar breaks in and ties George and Weezy up in their kitchen.
Weezy: George, I thought this was a security building?
George: It is. Once the crook gets inside, he’s secure.

[KevinM1]

The overriding sense I get is that Muslims protect their own. Yeah, the 'good'/'moderate' ones will make some sort of "We're not violent assholes" statement/gesture, but I never get the feeling that they're doing anything to actually police their own. To fight against their youth being radicalized and sacrificing themselves.

I dunno... maybe that's unfair. It's just frustrating.

Regarding the refugees, there's no good answer. The overwhelming majority of them are fleeing ISIS, but like Nap said, ISIS will try to infiltrate them. I'm not entirely confident in the US' ability to properly vet incoming refugees.

And then there's the question of what to do with them once they're here. Is there actually a plan to help them assimilate? To learn our language and culture and get jobs? Because with no end to the conflict in sight, we can't just provide for them indefinitely.

[Heat]

Wage war on the ideology not the people who hold it.

The moment we start discriminating Muslims for their ideology, or anyone for that matter, simply because they have unfavorable ideas yet have not committed a crime, is the moment we take a step backward in religious tolerance.

Outlawing people who possess a certain belief from even being in the same country as us will only make them dislike us more, to which negative action like mass killings become more viable.

People are not to blame, the ideology is, only when that ideology is acted upon, are the people to blaim.

I don't care what you say. I am not going to see innocent peoples as my enemies simply because I disagree with their beliefs, that's called bigotry.

[Catholic_Lady]

Wage war on the ideology not the people who hold it.

The moment we start discriminating Muslims for their ideology, or anyone for that matter, simply because they have unfavorable ideas yet have not committed a crime, is the moment we take a step backward in religious tolerance.

Outlawing people who possess a certain belief from even being in the same country as us will only make them dislike us more, to which negative action like mass killings become more viable.

People are not to blame, the ideology is, only when that ideology is acted upon, are the people to blaim.

I don't care what you say. I am not going to see innocent peoples as my enemies simply because I disagree with their beliefs, that's called bigotry.

Of course not, but I don't think that's what he was saying.

[Napoléon]

Wage war on the ideology not the people who hold it.

They go hand in hand. You can't fight one and not the other.

The moment we start discriminating Muslims for their ideology, or anyone for that matter, simply because they have unfavorable ideas yet have not committed a crime, is the moment we take a step backward in religious tolerance.

Nobody has said to start 'discriminating' muslims.

This is the kind of dumbass shit I'm referring to. People like to get on their moral high horse and berate anyone who provides valid criticism by implying "discrimination" and "bigotry".

Outlawing people who possess a certain belief from even being in the same country as us will only make them dislike us more, to which negative action like mass killings become more viable.

How the fuck do we get here from anything said in this thread? Do you people even read?

How do we go from saying we should not be afraid to criticize, and that we should better control our borders, to saying "outlawing people"?

And there is no viability in mass killing. It's your kind of attitude in pandering to this bullshit that breeds fear and causes people to not speak out. You're afraid of criticising because it might lead to mass killings. That's essentially what you've just said here. In effect you've done precisely what you do not intend. You've given these evil bastards all the viability they need.

Well no. Charlie Hebdo would like a word with you. I will not bow to the threat of mass killings and I will not let you silence me by implying I'm the one who's causing the problem.

People are not to blame, the ideology is, only when that ideology is acted upon, are the people to blaim.

Who makes up the ideology? Who acts upon the ideology?

Oh right. People.

You know what the problem is? People don't want to place blame. And people shy away from saying the obvious. Muslims are a problem as much as Islam is a problem. They are one and the same and constantly trying to separate the two is pandering to a pussy-footing PC agenda to save from offending people.

I don't care what you say. I am not going to see innocent peoples as my enemies simply because I disagree with their beliefs, that's called bigotry.

Moral high horse moral high horse moral high horse.

Does it feel good up there?

[Catholic_Lady]

Yes, it's scary, but have a look here:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2...esults.pdf

From the party that's constantly hollering about Freedumz!, this is hypocrisy at its worst. Nationwide, more than a third of Republicans say that Islam should be illegal in the United States, according to a new PPP poll provided exclusively to Daily Kos Elections. Nearly half—a 44 percent plurality—say Christianity should be our official religion.

So what about that pesky freedom of religion guaranteed by the Constitution? You know, that whole "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?" Well, PPP asked about that too. And guess what? Just one in 20 Republicans admit to wanting to actually eliminate freedom of religion, even though so many of them had just espoused positions that would do exactly that!

Source: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/07...l-religion

That's scary as well. How about we fuck the Republicans and fuck Christianity as well? Or should this sort of thinking only apply to Islam?

Wow, had never heard that before. That's pretty bad.

EDIT TO ADD: Half those people taking that survey were Obama voters though. So you can't really just blame Republicans specifically. It's Americans in general.

[Dystopia]

This leads us to one conclusion - Something being bad or evil doesn't mean it can't be possible or exist - Many people don't believe most Muslims have this kind of views because they think Muslims are the same as Christians, Jews - AKA, just different life choices similar to wanting to be a doctor or a lawyer. The truth is not that simple. What people believe in is relevant, and how they act upon it is even more relevant. When someone believes in something that urges them to act upon it using violence and coercion, that's a serious problem.

From my experience with the about 50% liberal population in my lawschool, the majority of liberals who are pro-Islam simply think being Muslim is akin to being black or part of an ethnic minority, it's just something people are and we can't discriminate against them, when in fact ethnicity and religion are two different topics. You can pick your religion, and you can act upon it, you can change it or not, you can force it upon others or leave peacefully. All of this affects society.

Most politicians don't care about this statistics, the same way they don't care for statistics showing that shitty wages don't help workers.

[Napoléon]

You can pick your religion, and you can act upon it, you can change it or not, you can force it upon others or leave peacefully. All of this affects society.

This.

And a lot of the time, inaction, and ignorance, are what affects society the most. Not simply those that are in the news blowing people up.

[Heat]

Wage war on the ideology not the people who hold it.

They go hand in hand. You can't fight one and not the other.

The moment we start discriminating Muslims for their ideology, or anyone for that matter, simply because they have unfavorable ideas yet have not committed a crime, is the moment we take a step backward in religious tolerance.

Nobody has said to start 'discriminating' muslims.

This is the kind of dumbass shit I'm referring to. People like to get on their moral high horse and berate anyone who provides valid criticism by implying "discrimination" and "bigotry".

Outlawing people who possess a certain belief from even being in the same country as us will only make them dislike us more, to which negative action like mass killings become more viable.

How the fuck do we get here from anything said in this thread? Do you people even read?

How do we go from saying we should not be afraid to criticize, and that we should better control our borders, to saying "outlawing people"?

And there is no viability in mass killing. It's your kind of attitude in pandering to this bullshit that breeds fear and causes people to not speak out. You're afraid of criticising because it might lead to mass killings. That's essentially what you've just said here.

Well no. Charlie Hebdo would like a word with you. I will not bow to the threat of mass killings and I will not let you silence me by implying I'm the one who's causing the problem.

People are not to blame, the ideology is, only when that ideology is acted upon, are the people to blaim.

Who makes up the ideology? Who acts upon the ideology?

Oh right. People.

You know what the problem is? People don't want to place blame. And people shy away from saying the obvious. Muslims are a problem as much as Islam is a problem. They are one and the same and constantly trying to separate the two is pandering to a pussy-footing PC agenda to save from offending people.

I don't care what you say. I am not going to see innocent peoples as my enemies simply because I disagree with their beliefs, that's called bigotry.

Moral high horse moral high horse moral high horse.

Does it feel good up there?

1.
Yes, you can fight one and not the other.
If you had an ideology that was against African Americans, saying they were unequal, do I wage war on you as a person?
No, but I can certainly degrade your beliefs.

2.
You interpreted me wrong/I used the wrong word.
I am not saying mass killings are ever justifiable, but a mentally unstable person will be more enticed to do something like that if you discriminate against them.

3.
Maybe I mispoke, I read a post by someone yesterday that was similar to this but explaining that we should outlaw Muslims from entering certain countries out of fear their ideology would lead them to commit heinous acts. If that is not what you are implying, i'm sorry for making assumptions, that's essentially what I was arguing against.

4.
Just because someone is trying to look at both sides of the argument does not mean you have to instantly call them out and say "MORAL HIGH HORSE MORAL HIGH HORSE" like they are trying to act better than you. I'm not pandering to the "PC-Pussy footing agenda", I am expressing my beliefs, hell yesterday I argued my opinion against 4 other people in disagreement, and was completely in the minority. I'm not trying to appease anyone with my views, I am simply sharing them.




An ideology does not define a person, I am not stupid enough to believe that.
Say i'm on my "moral high horse", go ahead, it really is overused and meaningless unless someone is actually trying to act better than you morally, or the general public, which doesn't apply to me. Just because I have a view, or rather a hope, that humanity can be treated and deserves to be treated equally, does not mean I am trying to appease or pander to anyone whatsoever, or am acting like I am an angel of some sort. So take it as you will.