If you were ever a theist...

[*Deidre*]

All of a sudden, feeling very sad atm. I wish there was less judgement from both atheists and theists. Always seems like I'm the odd girl out...when I left Christianity, I was questioned by Christians, when I turned back...I'm questioned by atheists. Idk.

The reason why I questioned you earlier in the thread, is because, if you found a good reason to return to your theistic beliefs, I want to know about it. It wasn't to put you in a tough spot, it was to discover if your beliefs were rational and evidence based enough for me to also believe them.

As I previously stated, I am passionate about having as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs. If you have, what I would consider good reasons, as far as I can tell, you wouldn't need faith. 

My main reason to continue to participate in these discussions, is to determine if there is some belief that I don't currently hold, that I should.

I just wish someone could tell me why a god would want people to believe on bad evidence, despite all the good evidence to the contrary.

I know Simon, I do. The challenge with atheism, is that it expects certainty and factual evidence...which a believer who has had an experience could convey, but not in a way that can be tried and tested and satisfying to a non-believer. You know? So, you know what various religions teach, you know certainly what Christianity teaches...and yet you don't believe it. I was this same exact way, I just let it all go, and no longer cared about it. You could say when you're alone...whenever...''God, if you exist...reveal yourself to me in some way.'' And if/when He does, hopefully you will understand what I'm feeling now. I believe that reading stories of the past (the Bible) isn't enough...it requires one to have an experience of faith...or to continually experience their faith, and that be something as simple as a joy that is hard to explain. I think of Christians who are bigots, and such and it would seem to me that their faith resides in a book...and faith is a lot more than that, to me now.

There is something very sweet about your wording here. ''Sweet'' lol I can't think of a better word right now, but your post is endearing. When you say 'if there is some belief that I don't currently hold, that I should.' It's interesting to me, to talk with someone who desires to know as much as he can.

[robvalue]

I definitely don't require certainty, in fact I'm of the opinion that certainty in anything is entirely misguided. The best we can do is come to conclusions that are beyond reasonable doubt, after making minimal pragmatic assumptions.

[*Deidre*]

I definitely don't require certainty, in fact I'm of the opinion that certainty in anything is entirely misguided. The best we can do is come to conclusions that are beyond reasonable doubt, after making minimal pragmatic assumptions.

This is true, how do you know your conclusions are correct? Are you open minded to the idea that maybe, a supernatural realm exists? No religion boxing it in, but when you are alone with your own thoughts, do you ever ponder that?

It's also safe to say that there is no 'reason' to believe, I used to think this when I identified as an atheist. I didn't care if there was a god or not, if there was...He could reveal himself to me. And, we know the ending to this story. 

I don't expect anyone to believe me, my point of this thread was merely to ask people here if they ever had beliefs before identifying as atheists. I actually think that is fascinating in and of itself.

[robvalue]

I'm open to the possibility of absolutely anything.

I can never know my conclusions are correct.

[*Deidre*]

All of a sudden, feeling very sad atm. I wish there was less judgement from both atheists and theists. Always seems like I'm the odd girl out...when I left Christianity, I was questioned by Christians, when I turned back...I'm questioned by atheists. Idk.

I don't know if this would mean anything to you, but one line that stroke me as important is describing the lovers of God and loved ones of God:

...and fearing not the blame of any blamer...(5:54)

Forgive me if you've said this elsewhere, are you still following Islam primarily? I know you mentioned you were once a Deist.

[*Deidre*]

I'm open to the possibility of absolutely anything.

Okay, that's really great to read. 

[Excited Penguin]

I've told this story many times, but here goes.

My belief got challenged in a major way when I was in seventh grade, barely a teenager. It was around the time when I first started having deep thoughts about various things and began reading more serious literature and even a little philosophy. A classmate of mine, a girl, was an atheist, and when I first found out about it I was a little surprised. We were a tight group of friends so it was natural to start talking to her about it. I was at first arrogant in my approach but then I liked our talks so much we started chatting online as well(yeah, I know, I'm a pup who grew up with the internet). So I was in the middle of writing a long letter to her, as per her request, giving my best arguments as to why to believe in God was the most logical thing ever, more or less, and I deconverted myself in the process. I was literally thinking about an argument I was about to make when something clicked. Something was wrong. I went back and read everything up until that point and the last thing I wrote still didn't make sense. So I realised there's no obvious reason why God should exist, in fact there was none that I could think of.

I later learned she had an older brother who was either a physicist or studying physics in the U.S. at the time, if I'm not mistaken. I never asked her about it but I suppose that's where she got her skeptical side from. Whatever the reason, I'm grateful I talked to her. I might still be a believer to this day. It suited me. I was a happy moron, more or less. Right after I let go of it I realised what a different person I would have become if not for my sudden awakening. It changed me completely. I was suddenly aware of how I had lived in a fantasy world. I had been the wrong sort of idealist, the one that is so dogmatically tied to his unjustifiable beliefs that they become an unquestionable part of his worldview. Today this old side of me disgusts me, despite the fact that I was just a kid and couldn't have necessarily known any better.

I came up with a lot of theories of my own for why people believe in God over the years. A universal longing for some sort of authority where one is either lacking or inadequate; a failure of using and understanding language; a malfunction of the psyche caused by misery and suffering that forces one to believe impossible things in order to cope with the world around him; and so on.

I still find it amazing that people believe it, though. A part of me thinks they know it's a fantasy, deep down, as well. The hold it has on them is frightening, nonetheless. Especially since we can objectively say it's as ridiculous and unjustifiable as anything ever can be(Hogwarts, ghosts, Zeus, invisible ponies, etc.). We live in a world where people believe in fantastical creatures that they think created them and the world around them, and not only that, these creatures somehow have a personal connection with them, influence their lives and watch over them. It's a perverse thing to believe and it's incredibly dangerous both because of how much people believe it and how little reason they have to(none). You can't tell how much harm a false belief can do to you(or others) or how terribly it might affect your own actions, especially not if you're not able to be honest with yourself about it, no matter how "moderate" you think you really are.

[*Deidre*]

Just some random musings I find people's motivations fascinating.

I'm quite interested in the reasons people choose to be part of a religion, even if they consider it is "true". I find the whole concept of worship bizarre. I wouldn't worship a god, or anything else, and I can't understand what a god could possibly get out of it.

Even if the religion contains loads of amazing advice, the advice has been given already. There's nothing new. I can learn lots of wisdom from a book and then move on, without feeling the need to have some sort of relationship with the author.

As far as "thanking God" goes, I'd have thought the amount of thanks that is appropriate to give would be proportional to the effort expended. God seems to be described as requiring no effort whatsoever to create everything (although the bible does actually paint a different picture).

Worship is an odd word and for some, it means constantly hanging their head low in shame, and a feeling of not being worthy. That was my first Christian ''experience'' before I deconverted. lol There is a time and place for that type of ''worship,'' perhaps when thinking of what Jesus sacrificed (for me as a believer). But, now? Worship means to celebrate. Like you would celebrate someone very special in your life, their birthday, for example. Only this is a celebration of the giver of all birthdays. It is special to me now, and I no longer hang my head in shame, but just...celebrate God in a joyful way. That's how I interpret worship, anyway...but others may be different. I like that you ask questions in a respectful way, you write well. 

[Catholic_Lady]

Actually no. I wouldn't expect that. If you really had found any significant evidence of god that was rational and logical, you would have told us already just like any other theist. It would be on the six o'clock news.
What I'd hoped you would share is why you suddenly felt emotionally bonded to a god idea when you have seen us debunk so much "Garden of Eden, Noah's Ark, God the loving caring god, and other relevant christian topics on this forum. It would seem to me that going back to theism now would be an extreme example of god of the gaps when you only believe the gaps.

If  you really did experience contact or found rational evidence of a real god, why would you let us go to hell because you won't share it with us? Do you really want all of us to be tortured for all eternity? Wouldn't that be akin to a christian not following jesus' command to spread their witness? Sure, we would grill you about it but if it withstood scrutiny as truth, it could save so many souls here. This is an atheist forum where we are full of members that are yet unconvinced of the god claims and we share daily our reasons for being unconvinced, taking more out of the possible fold for jesus. I can't imagine a better target group that needs to hear of convincing evidence of god's reality.

If you are sure the spiritural event was solid evidence givent to you by god, but private, why wouldn't he give me, or Min, or Rob the same or similar evidence events? Why are you better than me? Why does god love you better than Rob? Do you know?

I don't doubt your sincerity for a moment and your good heart shows in many of your caring sympathetic comments you have made on this board. I don't want to hammer you at all over your change, it's your right to believe in anything and for any reason. I am notoriously curious, but please don't share anything you don't want to. I just want you to assure us that you are being true to yourself and are not just afraid to face life without your security blanket. I say this because I do like you and want to offer help of rational analysis along with the other great minds found on this forum. If, as I asked, you are emotionally bonded to the theistic perception and  don't want your thought structure second guessed, then you probably wouldn't want to post anything about your re-conversion events.

 We curious cats will still be stuck to wonder why the emotional bond to theism and why the refusal to share your witness as commanded by jesus?

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a Christian at work one day, we were in the kitchen and the topic of belief came up, and he said something that I thought was poignant. He said that back when Jesus walked the earth, and performed miracles right in front of people's faces, many still didn't believe that He was of a supernatural realm. They still scoffed, and many didn't follow Him. Some did follow Him, but many didn't. And He was right there, in their midst. Now, this time last year and for a few years, I didn't really believe that Jesus existed as what the NT states as such. For me, I felt Jesus may have existed, but as a human...historically. Perhaps. And then I even let all that go, and didn't give much thought to it all. 

So, for me to share in detail all that happened to get me to change my mind and gravitate back to Christianity...would you sincerely believe me that I truly had such an encounter? Probably not. And you know what the Bible is about, I wouldn't be telling you anything new. And you don't believe in a deity of any kind just the same. So, my 'witness' is meaningless, and if you are being honest...most likely you would like for me to 'come to my senses,' and realize that what happened wasn't of a supernatural realm. Which is fine, this is an atheist website, and I respect it. I came here when I wasn't a believer, and this was the first website that I discovered, and have stayed e-friends with a few people, and so I return from time to time.

Jesus told His followers...to go to villages and preach the Gospel, that is true...but He said to shake the dust from their feet if those villages didn't accept the Gospel. Not to spend time struggling to get people to believe, but to plant a seed and go on. You know what Christianity teaches, so it is up to you to follow it or not. Do I believe you will go to a place called hell if you don't? No, I don't. My beliefs aren't wrapped up in looking at what others are doing or not doing, but rather, what my faith means to me, and how it has moved me. How I can use my life in a positive way for others. For me, I give that credit to God, for you...if you move people in a positive way, you don't give the credit to God. That's honestly the only difference between us...

Well, there's other differences, but...lol You know what I mean. I hope this makes sense.

Very well said. 

And for the record, I too have had a supernatural thing happen right in front of me and someone else. 

And unless two perfectly sane women with zero history of mental illnesses were both having the exact same delusion at the exact same time, what we witnessed that day was clear evidence (for me) that God is real. The way things went down makes the latter much more likely/rational than the former. 

Deidre, I can totally understand you not wanting to share the details of your own experience. I myself can count on one hand the number of people (outside of family) I have told this to. It's hard to explain, but it's a sacred thing and thus feels wrong to not keep it guarded and protected.

[*Deidre*]

Did you just liken my belief in God, to...Hogwarts, excited penguin? lol If so, that's pretty adorable.