I called a friend who is a believer...

[robvalue]

I have a hypothesis that some theists either won't give the real reason they believe, or perhaps don't actually know what it is, and so present strawmen of themselves. Rationalizations.

My evidence for this is that dismantling these strawmen has absolutely no effect. Another is put in its place, similarly easily vanquished. Then another. Then back to the first one as if it never happened.

I think some people are embarressed to say the real reason because they know what people will likely think about it.

Just a hypothesis

[Old Baby]

@robvalue: I think that's very true of people who come to believe later in life. They aren't going to analyze it too closely. People like me who were just indoctrinated as babies are going to say stuff like "Because it's the truth!"

[robvalue]

I see, interesting Yeah, that makes sense.

I've noticed a few theists who have come to this forum and won't even actually state what their beliefs are, let alone why they believe them. They just snipe at what they presume is every atheist's belief instead. They must be really ashamed to not even have the guts to say what they believe.

[Mr Greene]

I'm wondering if theists think it's better to go through the motions and attend church etc. despite regarding it all as an utter waste of time than to be honest and say we don't believe.

[Red_Wind]

I'm wondering if theists think it's better to go through the motions and attend church etc. despite regarding it all as an utter waste of time than to be honest and say we don't believe.

My close family stopped going to church when i entered my early teens, life was hectic and money was short.Both my parents decided that our well being was more important then church.

[Old Baby]

I'm wondering if theists think it's better to go through the motions and attend church etc. despite regarding it all as an utter waste of time than to be honest and say we don't believe.

No, because we all believe.  We are just in denial.

[MTL]

I'm wondering if theists think it's better to go through the motions and attend church etc. despite regarding it all as an utter waste of time than to be honest and say we don't believe.

Interesting you should say that.

---

My sister, who is a loathsome, manipulative little shit,
is a self-professed Atheist
...but an Atheist who is happy to directly serve a Religion...if it suits her purposes.

She doesn't care if Religion causes harm;
on the contrary, she is happy to pose as a church-member for the social advantages it offers her,
even if that means perpetuating the lies of Religion, herself.

Our parents raised us to be devout Christians.

I have, myself, obviously, also rejected Religion;
yet, as an Agnostic, I at least allow for the remote possibility that God may exist;
and in any event, I encourage people to seek the ACTUAL TRUTH, in all matters.

It took me 20+ years of unaided spiritual, emotional, and mental turmoil, as well as lots of research,
to detach myself from my strict Christian upbringing, and arrive at my current position.

Along the way, I realized that I need not blame "God" per se,
for the evils of RELIGION,
because they are not the same thing.

You would think that my open-mindedness toward the possibility of God's existence
along with my obvious interest in the dogged pursuit of the ACTUAL TRUTH
would please  my parents,
(and, to his credit, in my Dad's case, it does, at least to a significant degree)
but my mother seems to hate me all the more, for it.

My Grandmother, my Aunt, my Mother, and my sister
would rather that I NOT care about the ACTUAL TRUTH,
if it means boring them or challenging their so-called "faith" or posing uncomfortable questions...

...and would prefer that I instead simply toe the line and observe the RELIGIOUS status quo of this family...

...even if this hypocritically goes against the very integrity they profess to have,
as so-called "Servants of God";
even as they lie through their teeth that the cornerstone of their Belief is that:
"God is synonymous with Truth".

I even pointed out this hypocrisy to my mother;

I said to her,

"Mom, I thought you would at least be pleased that I CARE enough to devote this much thought and energy to the subject, in the interest of integrity...

...but you seem to prefer my sister's method:  To sit in a church pew like a mealy-mouthed little humbug,
a flagrant hypocrite, whose heart is empty, whose purposes are corrupt...
as long as she doesn't inconvenience you by asking any UNCOMFORTABLE QUESTIONS,
and just puts on a façade of Christian piety! "

And my mother replied:  " Yes, I do prefer that. "


(!!??)


Okay, then...alright....let me catch my breath...

Consciousness-expanding moment:

My entire upbringing is a lie,
and HALF my family are nothing more than 'whited sepulchres'.


It all comes back to what I'm frequently saying about the difference between:

Theists who are Theists because their intentions are genuine;
they belong to a Religion only because they think they're on the right track toward finding God
(understanding that they believe "God" is synonymous with "Truth",
but they still fail to realize that what their Religion teaches ABOUT God is not necessarily the ACTUAL TRUTH,
so they have yet to realize the vital need to separate "God" from "Religion")

vs.

Theists who are only willing to accept the "truth" about "God" as they've been taught it,
(or according to the religion of their choice)
and are NOT willing to look at the possibility that while God may well exist,
He might NOT be anything like what they BELIEVE He is,
....indeed, He may have  NO ASSOCIATION, WHATSOEVER with their awful religion.

To my mind,

Any Theist who is not willing to consider that possibility,
is choosing to believe what other stupid, fallible humans have told them ABOUT God,
RATHER than being interested in pursuing what the ACTUAL TRUTH might be, for themselves,
lest it not be to their liking.

For instance, if it turned out tomorrow that God's existence was conclusively proven,
but that Jesus was NOT His Son, (maybe, I don't know....just a demon that pretended to be His Son)
and the Bible is NOT, in fact the Word of God,
and that God does NOT, in fact, have any problem with homosexuals...

...would all those fire-and-brimstone, pulpit-pounding homophobic Southern Baptists still WANT Him for their God?

My point:

For some Theists, who are sincere in their pursuit of ACTUAL TRUTH, religion is just a misguided mistake,
and it is those Theists whom I encourage to investigate the concept of Deism;

I encourage them to realize:

You CANNOT (with any degree of integrity, anyway),

- pursue the ACTUAL TRUTH (and therefore pursue God...assuming God is, in fact, synonymous with TRUTH),

AND

- serve a Religion (which only emptily asserts itself as "truth")

...at the same time.

When they realize that truism, they are free to be Deists,
and free of the Religion that was polluting their otherwise harmless Faith in God.



But for OTHER Theists,

The pursuit of ACTUAL TRUTH is not really what motivates them.

They only want the "truth" if it's a certain  truth.

(They only want a God, for instance, that hates homosexuality).

Therefore, this second category of Theists don't really serve God...

What they really serve, is RELIGION.

Not God.  Not TRUTH.

---

[drfuzzy]

@robvalue: I think that's very true of people who come to believe later in life.  They aren't going to analyze it too closely.  People like me who were just indoctrinated as babies are going to say stuff like "Because it's the truth!"

There are also the people who were indoctrinated as children, who were xtians their whole life, and who base their entire life and self-worth upon their xtianity, that aren't even going to come close to questioning.  My Mother was raised on a dirt-poor cotton and peanut farm, and her father was an illiterate atheist with a bit of an alcohol problem.  The church, for her, meant that she was better than her father, better than people who had money, etc.  For her, the world has always been divided into good Bible-believing xtians and evil demon-possessed god-hating non-believers.  
     My brother and I agree: the woman CANNOT question her beliefs.  Not only is she terrified of hell, she's not capable of considering the idea that god might not exist.  I think her brain would literally explode.  For her, there is "god's truth" and anything that disagrees with that are satanic lies.

[Godscreated]

removed the biggest bunch of pitiful excuses I've ever seen, denial will lead to hell according to the Bible. 

You are as full of excuses as anyone I've encountered here. Most of the things you say I said about you were in actually statements from you that I re-posted,  so it's you who doesn't pay attention to what you've written. I think the best thing to do is discontinue this conversation.  i can now see why your friend is moving away from you and  I agree with her. 

I'm turning you over to God with much prayer for a great conviction upon you, so if you start feeling like things aren't quite right remember this I'll be praying for you until God says stop, Old Baby has chosen hell and want change heart. I know there will be plenty of response to this post, I want be back to this post to read them. Waste your time if you're so inclined.

GC

P.S.  it's rather difficult to type with one hand, so I want be responding to much anyhow.

[Old Baby]

removed the biggest bunch of pitiful excuses I've ever seen, denial will lead to hell according to the Bible. 

You are as full of excuses as anyone I've encountered here. Most of the things you say I said about you were in actually statements from you that I re-posted,  so it's you who doesn't pay attention to what you've written. I think the best thing to do is discontinue this conversation.  i can now see why your friend is moving away from you and  I agree with her. 

I'm turning you over to God with much prayer for a great conviction upon you, so if you start feeling like things aren't quite right remember this I'll be praying for you until God says stop, Old Baby has chosen hell and want change heart. I know there will be plenty of response to this post, I want be back to this post to read them. Waste your time if you're so inclined.

GC

P.S.  it's rather difficult to type with one hand, so I want be responding to much anyhow.

Ok, thanks for your prayers. 

Hope your hand gets better soon.