Islam in Europe: perception and reality

[Drich]

Great, let's.
[quote='Heat' pid='1234395' dateline='1459235858']
The funniest part is that I didn't even know what political correctness was until I was accused of willingly and purposely doing it on this forum a couple months ago.

And after learning what it means, I still really don't give a shit. It's still just an empty phrase used to avoid expressing what one really thinks.

"Me thinks she doth protest too much"
One man's PC is another man's 'over generalizing' sport!

Oh just like you objectively read the bible?

absolutely! I have spent the last 20+ years studying all religion (primarily the bible) but have not ignored any chances to study any other religions with people who didn't mind sharing their knoweledge of their faiths. As such I feel I have an objective/non religious view of not only christianity but several other religions including islam.

The problem is that if you objectively read the bible you would be an atheist.

O-M-Glob

How can you be this stupid..

and still yet be so arrogant??

If one objectively does anything they will not come to a given outcome, that is called subjection. If one subjectively reads a book then he will come to your pre planned point (atheism) If one objectivly reads the bible the out come is not certain either way!

So just like you hold biases about the good in your religion, so do muslims.

Your a key word idiot. You don't actually read what is written you look for 'key words' check my faith status and build an arguement based on your position vs my position and how the two generally use those words.

If you had taken the time to read what I wrote you would have noted I suggested to read the koran for one reason, and it had nothing to do with the christian nor islamic position on anything. It was so ignorant people such as yourself would not have to depend on liberal media outlets to understand the stated goals of islam.
As per their holy book. And as the sunni's are literalists (when it suits them) if their book says jump they jump. Meaning 95% of the time you will truly know where the majority of islam stands.

Yet, you go off on a bias tirade as if it were topical, wonder why someone would do that.. oh, that's right you were looking for key words and not a topical discussion.

Also the fact that you think there is only one interpretation of Islam shocks me.

Hey stupid, the reading of the koran is not to debate christians or muslims!!! IT IS TO REFUTE WHAT THE LIBERAL MEDIA CLAIMS ABOUT ISLAM!!!
So when the media claims it is a religion of peace at it's core you CAN know that statement to be only true when Islam is the only religion being practiced, or they have infiltrated a community!

That the Koran otherwise only frowns on violence of any kind on practitioners of said religion. EVERYONE ELSE IS Subject to the blade given the right circumstance!

As far as debating muslims 90% of the world's population believes what I just pointed out because that is what a direct reading tells them. As such, that is why Sunni's are waging jihad on the west and even other sects of islam (The other 10% of what they consider to be luke warm muslims)

That in mind, Who gives two squirts about the non violent 10%ers have to say when 90% of 1.6 billion muslims in the world believe in a sunni reading of their holy book that allows them to kill anyone who apposes their God and their specific worship of him?

Do you believe in "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"? Do you believe in stoning your neighbor for working on the sabbath? No? You don't take your entire book literally?

Do you not understand that 'my book' represents two completely different religions? Not sects of one religion, but two totally separate religions all together?

The reason I do not hold those commands is because I am not an Old testament jew. Even New testament Jews do not hold those commands.

Then how are you making an assumption that ALL Muslims can't do the same. Just like you can, Muslims can pick and choose what they believe.

Ah, no. Sunni Muslims can not. Sunni Muslims are at the point in their religious evolution that the christian church was in the dark ages. They can not pick and choose what they believe or they are cut out of their sect like a cancer and can literally be stoned/killed in accordance with shira law. Again, who are the sunnis? they are 90% of all of Islam.

There are plenty of things in the Koran promoting peace, and many Muslims hold those sections with higher importance than the ones preaching hate, same as you do.

See this is what a stupid person believes. this is what a moron who has never owned, let alone studied, or even read a copy of the Koran believes. This is a statement made by an idiot who gets everything he knows from the news and other liberal media outlets.

The Koran promotes true peace only among muslims. It promotes peace among foreigners when a muslim is actively trying to convert someone, or they are trying to move into a region and out breed the current regions native population. But the very same muslims who believe in this tentative peace also hold fast to other muslims right/call to jihad. That is why you will never see a sunni truly denounce what other muslims do in Jihad for Allah.

Are you really that fucking stupid that you think all Muslims are in with each other under this conspiracy to lie about truly believing that outsiders should be persecuted?

Read the Koran you moron! It's not a conspiracy It is a COMMAND FROM THEIR GOD! Not an interpretation, but a spelled out direct "thou shalt lie or even sin anyway you need to to avoid persecution" The practice is called Taqiya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya
Surah 16:106
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;
http://quran.com/16/106

What about them NOT ACTUALLY FUCKING BELIEVING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU OVERGENERALIZING IGNORANT FUCKING MORON.

The 'over generalizing' is the foundation of being PC.
It only sounds like I'm over generalizing/not being PC because you don't have minimally basic understanding of islam is any real way shape or form. You think because I am speaking negitivly I am wrongly accusing the whole for the acts of a few. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am point out to a fundemental command that allows for "immoral" (by the religion's own standard) behavior in this religion.

Your problem is you do not believe islam would allow for hyprocrisy. It does. This practice has been expounded upon in the practice of Taqiya.

Now that said take the same race/country person out of Islam and place them in Christianity, they become an open book.

So then why not stop bringing in Muslims from those regions and bring in Christians from those very regions who have been mandated to assimilate into the various cultures? Over 1 million Christians are being held in camps outside of Syria and not welcome anywhere in that region because of their faith, but we don't want fate to befall muslims.. Why not? Oh, that's right it's not PC. 'we' want to help people, just so long as they are not Christian.

Don't know what any of that even fucking means.

You're saying that MODERN WESTERN CULTURE would rather accept MUSLIMS OVER CHRISTIANS?
You've got to be out of your god damn fucken mind buddy.

It's like you speak and think in pre programmed sound bites.

Try and put your general ignorance aside for a moment.
Seperate the people in the middle east into race and religion. for the most part one race, two religions.
Their is an active genocidal war being waged not against race but of people of the wrong religion. That wrong religion is any or even no religious belief other than the Sunni Practice of Islam. So why would we leave people in a region who are being exterminated because of their religion, and give their potential migration 'spot' to someone who up holds the values of the ones doing the extermination? Who at any moment could be 'called' to turn from their active task of converting or breeding to Jihad?

Especially when their are over a million Christians in harms way (Eg the Easter bombing of a childrens amusement park)

Do I care who it is?
No. We should accept all people.

I wish I could afford to send people like you over there to sell your message of peace on the front line and if you survive come back and tell your 'friends' what the real world is like.

I'm PC for believing we shouldn't discriminate because of religion, of course. What the fuck am I not "PC" for now adays.

PC used to mean you were trying to appease popular consensus and general "moral" standards and opinions, for what was considered politically correct. Well tell me chuck, if almost everyone on this thread is disagreeing with my position then who the fuck am I trying to appease?

hows about the rest of the far left liberal douche bags who support everything you just said.

[abaris]

Care to enlighten us on the bible passages, you love to quote so much, Drippy? They are fucking commands also, isn't it? At least for you they are, as you're4 not tiring to say. Do you go out to do all the things written there, if something happens, your god considers an abomination?

Btw, what exactly is your experience with Europe in any shape, way or form, that makes you an authority to judge? I mean, other than having met a few Greek businessmen confirming your notion that Greeks are slackers.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Oh, I see has fallen off the wagon and resumed his abuse of the lolsmiley.

[Crossless2.0]

What a surprise that a textual fundamentalist Christian would read the Koran like a textual fundamentalist Muslim might, ignoring that there are other ways to approach religious literature. Just as there are Christians who don't approach the Bible with Drich's preconceived ideas about how it is to be read and interpreted, so there are Muslims who don't fit neatly into his caricature of what Muslims are or should be. I assume he'd apply the No True Scotsman argument to Muslims who are more liberal in their reading of the Koran than others are with the same arrogant lack of hesitation he brings to the table when discussing other Christians.

[scoobysnack]

What measures do you propose?

That's a tough one and there is no one answer that everyone will agree with.

I would say people need to stop feeling guilty and obligated to let everyone into their countries. Obama and Hillary continued the campaign started by Bush and the neo-conservitives to essentially dismantle leadership in northern Africa and the middle east. The whole "moderate rebels" were armed and funded by the US to act a proxy army to decapitate leaders in certain countries. This has helped lead to the rise of ISIS. Muslims have been the victims of ISIS more than anyone. How has this ideology erupted in Islam and allowed to hide among supporters in various communities? They do have some support among the general population, even in Europe.

[robvalue]

So, when you say stop letting everyone in...

What are you proposing? Cut down in general on immigration numbers? Or use some new criteria? Stop immigration completely?

I understand you're trying to say "let less terrorists in", and ideally we would all want that. But there's the very obvious problem is that we don't know who they are. So what actual strategy would help?

[scoobysnack]

So, when you say stop letting everyone in...

What are you proposing? Cut down in general on immigration numbers? Or use some new criteria? Stop immigration completely?

I understand you're trying to say "let less terrorists in", and ideally we would all want that. But there's the very obvious problem is that we don't know who they are. So what actual strategy would help?

It's so complicated, and like I said there is no easy fix. I'm looking at the UK regulations now since I don't live there and don't really know what their laws are to begin with:  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules

In the US we have rules for legal immigration:  https://www.uscis.gov/laws/laws-regulati...nality-act

For example for legal immigrants we have a naturalization test on English and government civics. This prepares immigrants to be civil minded and speak english which is the national language to help them better to assimilate into our culture for both their benefit and the current citizens. I would say Europe should adopt something similar if they do not already.

Problem is with illegal immigration, they skip all that, don't pay anything to get in, and instead just come in undercut citizens for cheap labor and create disorder in economies. Yes they are human beings who really just desire a better life, but there needs to be some order to the situation.

Then there is the refugee settlement program where people can apply for asylum from countries at war. Word is they are already letting in Syrian refugees this year, giving them social security numbers and section 8 housing, all while keeping the state governors out of the loop. ISIS is already here in teh US, and in Europe. Just a matter of time before we start seeing suicide bombings here, likely to start this summer. Unfortunately it's going to take a few attacks before people really start supporting less immigration. No body cares about the IT work being brought in through the visa program from India, because they are valuable people. The refugees still have value as humans, but it's going to be a charitable effort to support them.

[abaris]

Problem is with illegal immigration, they skip all that, don't pay anything to get in, and instead just come in undercut citizens for cheap labor and create disorder in economies. Yes they are human beings who really just desire a better life, but there needs to be some order to the situation.

Wrong as most of the time. Just one of many articles about what illegals contribute to the economy. A quick google reveals many more on it. It just so happens, I just recently browsed for information on the often repeated bullshit of illegals contributing nothing.

 Altogether, according to the state and local tax data analysis—published by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)—undocumented immigrants contribute about $11.6 billion to the economy annually, including nearly $7 billion in sales and excise taxes and $3.6 billion in property taxes. They are, in economic terms, productive citizens, and pay a higher effective tax rate than the top 1 percent income bracket. That alone is not the primary reason they should be embraced as neighbors and coworkers. But it dissolves the myth that immigrants do nothing but drain public coffers.

http://www.thenation.com/article/undocum...each-year/

Also, we're not talking about illegal immigration but about people seeking asylum after fleeing a war zone and/or fearing for their lives. Different international laws apply in these instances.

[scoobysnack]

Problem is with illegal immigration, they skip all that, don't pay anything to get in, and instead just come in undercut citizens for cheap labor and create disorder in economies. Yes they are human beings who really just desire a better life, but there needs to be some order to the situation.

Wrong as most of the time. Just one of many articles about what illegals contribute to the economy. A quick google reveals many more on it. It just so happens, I just recently browsed for information on the often repeated bullshit of illegals contributing nothing.

 Altogether, according to the state and local tax data analysis—published by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)—undocumented immigrants contribute about $11.6 billion to the economy annually, including nearly $7 billion in sales and excise taxes and $3.6 billion in property taxes. They are, in economic terms, productive citizens, and pay a higher effective tax rate than the top 1 percent income bracket. That alone is not the primary reason they should be embraced as neighbors and coworkers. But it dissolves the myth that immigrants do nothing but drain public coffers.

http://www.thenation.com/article/undocum...each-year/

Also, we're not talking about illegal immigration but about people seeking asylum after fleeing a war zone and/or fearing for their lives. Different international laws apply in these instances.

Not wrong at all, you are just confused as usual. You didn't disprove anything I said that you quoted. Of course workers provide income to economies, whether legal or illegal. Illegal immigrants tend to work for less though on average. I said they are not paying the fees, or taking the tests to become legal, yet you completely glossed over that point because it was convenient to you because you are lazy and much more experienced in public relations than journalism.

With demographics of citizens in most nations, illegal immigrants supply an added boost to struggling economies. Even the governor in Minnesota said this. Citizens are not having children at a 2.11% rate per couple, so in order to pay for services and retirement, they are bringing in migrants and immigrants. The problem is not legal immigration, it's illegal immigration though. Obama has expanded refugee status to the point that many people are now claiming to be refugees when they are not, just to stay in. On top of that even the people in government working the borders are saying they are told to just let people go.

“Our economy cannot expand based on white, B+, Minnesota-born citizens. We don’t have enough,” Dayton said.

The key is getting people off the welfare, and getting them into the work force. There are plenty of people, they just need to get to work, and get trained.

[abaris]

Barring the fact, you still miss the point by a lightyear, since we're not talking about immigration but asylum seekers.