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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 4:37 pm
(December 2, 2016 at 3:09 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But not everyone in the hierarchy is involved either.
How many went to the police when they heard of the priestly depredations? That's right -- none. All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. If you know of crimes being committed and don't take action to stop them, are you not party to those crimes?
Of course not everyone in the hierarchy was involved in molesting child -- but read this and tell me that Francis's predecessor not only knew of the depredations as a Cardinal, he took active steps to shield those molesters.
(December 2, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Because it isn't part of the Catholic faith to believe that priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes are without sin. If I still believe in the dogmatic teachings of the Church, there's no reason why I should stop being a Catholic due to the crimes of some of its important people.
So you don't have a problem financially supporting an institution that even today is shielding molesters from justice?
You're looking at it through the prism of doctrine. I'm looking at it from the prism of what it is I will and won't support. I refuse to support any organization which shields criminals from justice, and that includes financial support.
First quote: I would consider the people who knew about someone molesting a kid and doing nothing, or actively covering up, as someone who is involved. But again, not every priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope was involved in that. Very few were.
Second quote: I can't account for every person who works for the Church, and I certainly know there are bad seeds among them as there are bad seeds everywhere and among every group. But I can say that we are much bigger than the extremely relatively few individuals who are bad people and use their influence for bad things. I do give money to the local Church I go to. About 30% of that money goes to charities, and the remaining majority mostly goes to that church itself. Since attending Church service is free of charge, the majority of the donated money given by us parishioners pays the employees and upkeep of the place.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 5:14 pm
Yes; it helps support an organization that practiced an institutional cover-up.
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 6:49 pm
(December 2, 2016 at 12:57 pm)Stimbo Wrote: (December 1, 2016 at 9:00 pm)Macoleco Wrote: Every priest is a criminal for me. Preaching lies and fear. Many believe that what they do is right, but it is actually wrong. Not that I will kill them for that anyway.
Ingersoll recognised this more than a century ago:
![[Image: quote-every-pulpit-is-a-pillory-in-which...-19-19.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.azquotes.com%2Fpicture-quotes%2Fquote-every-pulpit-is-a-pillory-in-which-stands-a-hired-culprit-defending-the-justice-of-his-robert-green-ingersoll-113-19-19.jpg) Love it
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 7:00 pm
Ingersoll is my favourite quotable heathen. One of my favourites is "The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know".
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 7:05 pm
(November 27, 2016 at 2:07 am)Macoleco Wrote: By attacking I mean violently and/or economically speaking. Would you do it if you had the power? Such a the Nazis did?
I wonder how many such attempts to brutally suppress religion ever worked. I think they become less effective in an age of technology like we have now. Better to let them continue to wilt under the societal and cultural pressure that comes from learning more and giving people access to knowledge and information.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 7:06 pm
Catholic lady I think you dont understand. The Church doesnt pay for its crime the same way the common people do.
Most societies are highly religious, and they are brainwashed to the point of forgiving any crime commited by the Church, simply because it is the Church. A priest molests a child, and people say "It was the devil who provoked the priest" or "Everyone makes mistakes", etc. But if it is a regular person, society wants the whole weight of the law to fall onto the criminal. They want to brutally punish him/her.
And this has always happened through history, and still happens. I have no idea how someone can belong to such evil institution, and defend it at the same time.
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 7:13 pm
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2016 at 7:13 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 2, 2016 at 7:06 pm)Macoleco Wrote: Catholic lady I think you dont understand. The Church doesnt pay for its crime the same way the common people do.
What do you mean by "the Church" though? Do you mean the specific individuals who work for the Church and who have committed the crime of either abuse or cover up or fail to report a known crime?
"The Church" consists of much more than those individuals.
But yes, I do agree that anyone involved should pay accordingly.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 7:16 pm
(December 2, 2016 at 7:06 pm)Macoleco Wrote: A priest molests a child, and people say "It was the devil who provoked the priest" or "Everyone makes mistakes", etc.
It's all-too often been far, far worse than that.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2...ified.html
I also recall a case in which the accused complained that his victim, a three-year-old girl iirc, "shouldn't have been dressed so sexily" (paraphrased).
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 7:18 pm
I think if you outright attacked religion you might risk making a sort of perverse martyrdom out of it. I think it's best just to completely secularise and strip religion of any privilege or presence in the public space. It should never be outright banned.
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane" - sarcasm_only
"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable." - Maryam Namazie
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RE: Would you attack the Church if you could?
December 2, 2016 at 8:01 pm
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2016 at 8:03 pm by Macoleco.)
(December 2, 2016 at 7:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 7:06 pm)Macoleco Wrote: Catholic lady I think you dont understand. The Church doesnt pay for its crime the same way the common people do.
What do you mean by "the Church" though? Do you mean the specific individuals who work for the Church and who have committed the crime of either abuse or cover up or fail to report a known crime?
"The Church" consists of much more than those individuals.
But yes, I do agree that anyone involved should pay accordingly.
It is not a "few people" of the Church. The whole organization is structured in a way that it protects molesters. We are not talking about the corruption of a few, we are talking about the corruption of the whole institution. There is a documentary about this: Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God
Please, PLEASE. Watch that documentary. That is if you have the strenght to watch it until the end. Hopefully you will reconsider your beliefs.
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