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(June 30, 2011 at 5:36 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: No, ethics, basic reliability of the senses, basic reliability of memory, laws of logic, uniformity in nature, the future resembling the past. Your worldview cannot give sufficient justification for these assumptions, and yet they are completely necessary in order to obtain any knowledge and conduct science. The Christian worldview therefore becomes the only correct worldview because of the impossibility of the contrary.
Every single item you listed is either WTF are you talking about or so abstract that you cannot possibly consider it an argument for god. Furthermore, you don't know what anyone here's worldview is. Atheism is not a worldview.
Too abstract? I don't believe so at all. No atheism is not itself a worldview completely, but there are atheistic worldviews such as naturalism, and none of them can account for these things. I guess we can just take one and go from there. Using any atheistic worldview you want, please give an account for the universal laws of logic.
there is no such thing as a universal law for logic. its a made up thing.
I used to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. Jimi Hendrix
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not. Kurt Cobain
(June 30, 2011 at 5:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, precondition of knowledge, ergo god. that about it?
No, ethics, basic reliability of the senses, basic reliability of memory, laws of logic, uniformity in nature, the future resembling the past. Your worldview cannot give sufficient justification for these assumptions, and yet they are completely necessary in order to obtain any knowledge and conduct science. The Christian worldview therefore becomes the only correct worldview because of the impossibility of the contrary.
most of these are cognitive abilities and human understanding, You are adding the Christian God into it with no basis. Its not an actual argument. Just a random connection that doesn't make sense in the slightest. YOu are using human understanding and applying it to the universe it doesn't work.
I do not agree with your assertion these are just parts of human understanding. Human understanding is made possible by the truth of these things, so it cannot be used to justify them. That would be circular. How could the laws of logic be just a result of human minds?
(June 30, 2011 at 5:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, precondition of knowledge, ergo god. that about it?
No, ethics, basic reliability of the senses, basic reliability of memory, laws of logic, uniformity in nature, the future resembling the past. Your worldview cannot give sufficient justification for these assumptions, and yet they are completely necessary in order to obtain any knowledge and conduct science. The Christian worldview therefore becomes the only correct worldview because of the impossibility of the contrary.
most of these are cognitive abilities and human understanding, You are adding the Christian God into it with no basis. Its not an actual argument. Just a random connection that doesn't make sense in the slightest. YOu are using human understanding and applying it to the universe it doesn't work.
I do not agree with your assertion these are just parts of human understanding. Human understanding is made possible by the truth of these things, so it cannot be used to justify them. That would be circular. How could the laws of logic be just a result of human minds?
Human understanding is made up of our cognitive capacity and learning. Not by any deep hidden truths.
I used to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. Jimi Hendrix
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not. Kurt Cobain
Firstly, you never even asked me my "worldview" whatever the hell you're even using that word to mean, I honestly have no idea with you. Secondly, when you have two positions, one being incorrect does not make the other correct by default. They can both be wrong.
You'll have to do more than poke holes in the "Atheist Worldview" (i feel dirty for having even typed that) to prove the "Christian Worldview"
I'll rephrase my earlier summary of your argument.
stuff is here, ergo god. that about it?
I am sorry but you are just flat out wrong. I don't have to know what exactly your worldview is, I only know it is atheistic in nature and that's enough. No atheistic worldview can account for these things. Secondly, because of the law of excluded middle I most certainly can prove my worldview by poking holes in all other worldviews. Its called disjunctive logic and it is completely appropriate.
June 30, 2011 at 5:55 pm (This post was last modified: June 30, 2011 at 5:58 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(June 30, 2011 at 5:43 pm)thebigfudge Wrote: Their is no such thing as an Atheistic world its a made up thing. Atheism is a human understanding.
Well I agree with you that there is no such thing as an atheistic world, because I believe we live in a theistic one. However the concept does exist. An atheistic world would be a world or universe that is not created and governed by God.
Shell B Wrote:Every single item you listed is either WTF are you talking about or so abstract that you cannot possibly consider it an argument for god. Furthermore, you don't know what anyone here's worldview is. Atheism is not a worldview.
Too abstract? I don't believe so at all. No atheism is not itself a worldview completely, but there are atheistic worldviews such as naturalism, and none of them can account for these things. I guess we can just take one and go from there. Using any atheistic worldview you want, please give an account for the universal laws of logic.
Quote:there is no such thing as a universal law for logic. its a made up thing.
What? You are saying that somewhere out in the universe contradictions happen? That things are not what they are? That a star could be a star and not a star at the same time and in the same relationship? I assure you, logic has to be universal.
(June 30, 2011 at 5:50 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: The "Laws of Logic" is the name we (mankind) has given to our perceived universal constants. There is nothing mysterious or mystical about it.
Explain what you mean by universal constants please Paul. Thanks.
Why are the Laws of Logic perfect in a naturalistic worldview?
Because these Laws aren't prescriptive laws, they are descriptive laws. We explained how things are and gave them a name. In effect we are stating "That is the way the universe behaves, and that's what we use as axioms." We made the laws for ourselves to make sense of things, not for everything in the universe to follow.
If i could be so bold as to ask why you believe the christian worldview accounts for this? If god created the laws of logic..if they were prescriptive, could he not have made them such that a statement could be both true and false simultaneously?
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