What is your favourite positive argument for atheism/unbelief?

[Brian37]

The confusion isn;t in my post, lol.


Yes, you are the one who said that..and if you believe it to be so.....then why do you not also suspect NDE accounts?  If a brain in trouble is not to be trusted...why do you trust the experience of a brain in trouble?

"Brain in trouble says I floated out of my body."
-...........sounds legit....?


Moreover, brain in trouble, it seems..from those nde accounts, does not actually have to -be- in trouble to produce the effect.  The perception of the threat is sufficient.  People who are not near death, or in any danger at all...but under extreme stress make up a disproportionate amount of nde reports.  Why do you believe the brain in trouble, Rik?  Why do you believe the brain in trouble that;s so dumb it only -thinks- it's in trouble....that can manufacture these experiences regardless?

On an even more specific scale...why do you trust your troubled brain?  

More and more confusion Khem.  

Hallucinations are produced by a brain in trouble and of course I do not trust them.
They come and go, they are not clear, sharp and vivid experience and they manifest when the brain is  sick but alive.
NDEs instead they manifest when the brain is off and the consciousness has already separate from the dead brain.  

Cut the crap. 

You, "NDEs are real".....

Me, "Yes, a real delusion, a real false perception".

And again, if your consciousness could be separate from our brains, then how come the worldwide scientific community does not decapitate humans as a control group to test that? 

We get that you like the idea of something being there, but there is nothing there. Your bullshit is no different than a kid wanting to believe Santa is real because they get real gifts. You have false sensations and those false sensations can feel real when it is just your brain fooling you.

[Little Rik]

A lot of guessing son.  

Nothing however that has anything to do with evidence.  

Said the hypocrite unwilling to decapitate himself to prove his consciousness is separate from his brain. I am glad you are a hypocrite because I think you'd kill yourself needlessly. Seriously, don't kill yourself to prove a point, because it is a losing argument.

To kill oneself is like to reject someone gift.
Considering that the gift come from someone very very powerful that would involve a lot of trouble.
Why would I be so stupid to upset that powerful entity and at the same time cause a lot of physical pain to myself.
I guess you never thought about that Brian, did you?  

Your fictional "forever" is an evolutionary false perception that our species make up which is really a mental delusion reflecting the human evolutionary drive to continue.

I leave these intellectual thoughts with you.
They mean nothing anyway.

---

Imbecile.    
Read my previous post in which I do explained to Brian how the term NDE is wrong.

I agree that is a bullshit name or term but for different reasons.
I do not know who gave this name to these experiences.
I personally would have given a different name.
So instead of saying NDEs I would have said......DAREs (Death And Resurrect Experiences).
In this way folks wouldn't wrongly think that the chap never really died.

You're such an idiot.  These people suffer clinical death, the cessation of blood flow and breathing, but not brain death -- the death of the cells of the brain.  There is no resurrection from brain death.  So no, it's named correctly as NEAR death experience.

Double imbecile.  
You give me evidence that a brain in trouble is able to produce such clear, sharp and vivid experiences and I will cover you in 24 carat gold.  

What in fuckall does that have to do with whether OBEs are hallucinatory or not.  Didn't have an answer, eh?

Regardless, you're the one saying that it's not possible.  That's your claim and your burden of proof.  So far you've got squat and plenty of counter-evidence in the form of G-LOC and ketamine and anoxia.

"When you have a malfunction in the brain you can not build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience." Little Rik, 4/19/17, "What is logic?"

Idiot.  
Similar doesn't mean the same.
In those cases the consciousness is forced to open up to allow some bliss.
This is not natural.
It is similar to a masturbation therefore will cause side effect to body and mind.
NDEs instead are natural phenomena and do not produce side effects.

We've been through this and you didn't have any evidence for it before either.  Picking up on one word and trying to make a feast of it is a chump move, especially when you don't have any evidence.   But look! "Ketamine administered by intravenous injection is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described."  In other words, it's the same.  And your garbage about natural versus unnatural is just that. The question is not whether drugs are bad but whether "clear, sharp and vivid" hallucinations can be duplicated experimentally, and they can.  If a chemical soup in the brain can produce clear, vivid and sharp hallucinations experimentally, then it can also do so naturally.  Your natural versus unnatural complaint is beside the point.  (And you're also shifting the goalposts; it wasn't a question of whether the experiences were THE SAME as in an NDE, but whether a 'malfunctioning' brain can produce clear, sharp, and vivid experiences.  It can.  You failed doubly.)

You are a total idiot Yog.  

The experiences can not possibly be the same.
When you administer drugs the brain is still alive and the consciousness is still inside the brain.
With NDEs is a different story because the consciousness has already separate from the body-brain.
The fact that you will feel bliss even with drugs is because drugs have an effect on the pineal glad and the consciousness within.

On the other hand when the consciousness has separate from the body-brain she is 100% free therefore
the experience can not be compared to when the consciousness is not 100% free.
Have you ever ask yourself why prisoners try to escape from the jail?

I guess you never thought about that Yog, did you?  

[Brian37]

Said the hypocrite unwilling to decapitate himself to prove his consciousness is separate from his brain. I am glad you are a hypocrite because I think you'd kill yourself needlessly. Seriously, don't kill yourself to prove a point, because it is a losing argument.

To kill oneself is like to reject someone gift.
Considering that the gift come from someone very very powerful that would involve a lot of trouble.
Why would I be so stupid to upset that powerful entity and at the same time cause a lot of physical pain to myself.
I guess you never thought about that Brian, did you?  

Your fictional "forever" is an evolutionary false perception that our species make up which is really a mental delusion reflecting the human evolutionary drive to continue.

I leave these intellectual thoughts with you.
They mean nothing anyway.  

---

You're such an idiot.  These people suffer clinical death, the cessation of blood flow and breathing, but not brain death -- the death of the cells of the brain.  There is no resurrection from brain death.  So no, it's named correctly as NEAR death experience.


What in fuckall does that have to do with whether OBEs are hallucinatory or not.  Didn't have an answer, eh?

Regardless, you're the one saying that it's not possible.  That's your claim and your burden of proof.  So far you've got squat and plenty of counter-evidence in the form of G-LOC and ketamine and anoxia.

"When you have a malfunction in the brain you can not build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience." Little Rik, 4/19/17, "What is logic?"



We've been through this and you didn't have any evidence for it before either.  Picking up on one word and trying to make a feast of it is a chump move, especially when you don't have any evidence.   But look! "Ketamine administered by intravenous injection is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described."  In other words, it's the same.  And your garbage about natural versus unnatural is just that. The question is not whether drugs are bad but whether "clear, sharp and vivid" hallucinations can be duplicated experimentally, and they can.  If a chemical soup in the brain can produce clear, vivid and sharp hallucinations experimentally, then it can also do so naturally.  Your natural versus unnatural complaint is beside the point.  (And you're also shifting the goalposts; it wasn't a question of whether the experiences were THE SAME as in an NDE, but whether a 'malfunctioning' brain can produce clear, sharp, and vivid experiences.  It can.  You failed doubly.)

You are a total idiot Yog.  

The experiences can not possibly be the same.
When you administer drugs the brain is still alive and the consciousness is still inside the brain.
With NDEs is a different story because the consciousness has already separate from the body-brain.
The fact that you will feel bliss even with drugs is because drugs have an effect on the pineal glad and the consciousness within.

On the other hand when the consciousness has separate from the body-brain she is 100% free therefore
the experience can not be compared to when the consciousness is not 100% free.
Have you ever ask yourself why prisoners try to escape from the jail?

I guess you never thought about that Yog, did you?  

Boy you are dense. We don't doubt you had an "experience", we do doubt your interpretation of what you think you saw.

When I was a kid, I would have believed this bullshit because I didn't know any better. I was a believer at the time. Once I saw my dead grandmother standing at the foot of my bed, she looked as real as this computer I am typing on. Another time I saw my dead father also standing at the foot of my bed, and again, at the time it felt real. But I also saw my living mom the same way, also standing at the foot of my bed. 

I know know that was my brain projecting that dream mixing with my open eyes. I have also had an "outer body experience", in all those cases they were merely my brain hallucinating mixing with my other senses, but they still were not real "spirits" just delusions my brain had manufactured, most likely due to stress.

---

Oh and I do suffer ADD and am probably slightly dyslexic, I just noticed I am confusing Rik with Lek here. But even with that confusion my part, at least I am admitting my gap filling is causing me to have false perceptions. NDEs work the same way, it is a lack of recognition as to the scientific reality of what is really going on. Just like there is a scientific medical reason I can confuse Rik with Lek.

[Angrboda]

You're such an idiot.  These people suffer clinical death, the cessation of blood flow and breathing, but not brain death -- the death of the cells of the brain.  There is no resurrection from brain death.  So no, it's named correctly as NEAR death experience.


What in fuckall does that have to do with whether OBEs are hallucinatory or not.  Didn't have an answer, eh?

Regardless, you're the one saying that it's not possible.  That's your claim and your burden of proof.  So far you've got squat and plenty of counter-evidence in the form of G-LOC and ketamine and anoxia.

"When you have a malfunction in the brain you can not build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience." Little Rik, 4/19/17, "What is logic?"



We've been through this and you didn't have any evidence for it before either.  Picking up on one word and trying to make a feast of it is a chump move, especially when you don't have any evidence.   But look! "Ketamine administered by intravenous injection is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described."  In other words, it's the same.  And your garbage about natural versus unnatural is just that. The question is not whether drugs are bad but whether "clear, sharp and vivid" hallucinations can be duplicated experimentally, and they can.  If a chemical soup in the brain can produce clear, vivid and sharp hallucinations experimentally, then it can also do so naturally.  Your natural versus unnatural complaint is beside the point.  (And you're also shifting the goalposts; it wasn't a question of whether the experiences were THE SAME as in an NDE, but whether a 'malfunctioning' brain can produce clear, sharp, and vivid experiences.  It can.  You failed doubly.)

You are a total idiot Yog.  

The experiences can not possibly be the same.
When you administer drugs the brain is still alive and the consciousness is still inside the brain.
With NDEs is a different story because the consciousness has already separate from the body-brain.
The fact that you will feel bliss even with drugs is because drugs have an effect on the pineal glad and the consciousness within.

On the other hand when the consciousness has separate from the body-brain she is 100% free therefore
the experience can not be compared to when the consciousness is not 100% free.
Have you ever ask yourself why prisoners try to escape from the jail?

I guess you never thought about that Yog, did you?  

"It's not possible! It's not possible!" You have a habit of claiming things you couldn't possibly know.

You know, if you try real hard, you just *might* be able to move that goalpost. That you're not even arguing the right point tells me all I need to know about you.

Anyway, still no evidence. And I'm tired of your bullshit assertions. So, fuck off.

I had an NDE about 6 days before the first time I took ketamine because my then partner died. ... I had acquired the "K" (ketamine) a week previously for the party, but didn't do it until a few days after she died. It was the first time I had taken "K". ... It was like a way out and it was exactly like the out-of-body thing.

http://www.near-death.com/science/halluc...-ndes.html

[Brian37]

Said the hypocrite unwilling to decapitate himself to prove his consciousness is separate from his brain. I am glad you are a hypocrite because I think you'd kill yourself needlessly. Seriously, don't kill yourself to prove a point, because it is a losing argument.

To kill oneself is like to reject someone gift.
Considering that the gift come from someone very very powerful that would involve a lot of trouble.
Why would I be so stupid to upset that powerful entity and at the same time cause a lot of physical pain to myself.
I guess you never thought about that Brian, did you?  

Your fictional "forever" is an evolutionary false perception that our species make up which is really a mental delusion reflecting the human evolutionary drive to continue.

I leave these intellectual thoughts with you.
They mean nothing anyway.  

---

You're such an idiot.  These people suffer clinical death, the cessation of blood flow and breathing, but not brain death -- the death of the cells of the brain.  There is no resurrection from brain death.  So no, it's named correctly as NEAR death experience.


What in fuckall does that have to do with whether OBEs are hallucinatory or not.  Didn't have an answer, eh?

Regardless, you're the one saying that it's not possible.  That's your claim and your burden of proof.  So far you've got squat and plenty of counter-evidence in the form of G-LOC and ketamine and anoxia.

"When you have a malfunction in the brain you can not build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience." Little Rik, 4/19/17, "What is logic?"



We've been through this and you didn't have any evidence for it before either.  Picking up on one word and trying to make a feast of it is a chump move, especially when you don't have any evidence.   But look! "Ketamine administered by intravenous injection is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described."  In other words, it's the same.  And your garbage about natural versus unnatural is just that. The question is not whether drugs are bad but whether "clear, sharp and vivid" hallucinations can be duplicated experimentally, and they can.  If a chemical soup in the brain can produce clear, vivid and sharp hallucinations experimentally, then it can also do so naturally.  Your natural versus unnatural complaint is beside the point.  (And you're also shifting the goalposts; it wasn't a question of whether the experiences were THE SAME as in an NDE, but whether a 'malfunctioning' brain can produce clear, sharp, and vivid experiences.  It can.  You failed doubly.)

You are a total idiot Yog.  

The experiences can not possibly be the same.
When you administer drugs the brain is still alive and the consciousness is still inside the brain.
With NDEs is a different story because the consciousness has already separate from the body-brain.
The fact that you will feel bliss even with drugs is because drugs have an effect on the pineal glad and the consciousness within.

On the other hand when the consciousness has separate from the body-brain she is 100% free therefore
the experience can not be compared to when the consciousness is not 100% free.
Have you ever ask yourself why prisoners try to escape from the jail?

I guess you never thought about that Yog, did you?  

Human life is not a "gift" it is a life. A "gift" is an object. I don't see myself as an object. So a poor African kid whom will die before the age of 5 from starvation in a war torn country is a "gift"? That kind of hell is a "gift" to you? The Syrian kids whom got killed by a gas bomb, that's ok because God gave them life just so they could die a horrible painful death way before they even became adults, you think that is a "gift"? Childhood cancer is a "gift"? 

Silly me, I must have it all wrong, I grew up thinking a "gift" was an object you gave on birthdays and holidays. If you want to use the word "gift" regarding human life, fine, then get me Angelina Jolie and put her under my Christmas Tree, I am sure she wont scoff at that suggestion, I am sure she will say, "Oh what the hell, Brian wants me, I was born a gift so ok, Brian can have me because I am a gift".

I really find it sad to see theists objectify their own lives as if they were mere toys for an invisible man to play with or pass out like a "gift".

[Mystical]

---

Unfortunately most humans don't understand what causes them to think a after life exists. Even Hindus and Buddhists think of reincarnation as a "forever". What is really going on is purely mental. It is a false perception reflecting our evolutionary drive to move forward and continue. It is a false perception. Really no different than a dog confusing it's own reflection in the mirror as being another separate dog.

Most humans simply don't understand they are finite and the only place we really live on is in the memories of those whom survive us.

---

But we are still finite, and while certainly unique as individuals, we really are nothing more than our brains in motion, very unique fingerprints sure, but still nothing more than physical mass and fuel in motion. 

---

Reality isn't romantic enough for most humans. Reality isn't romantic or sexy, but it is reality, and by accepting that you can understand the world better.

---

[emjay]

@Brian. I'm sorry I told you to fuck off.
And sorry for your loss... of your mum.

[Little Rik]

Human life is not a "gift" it is a life. A "gift" is an object. I don't see myself as an object. So a poor African kid whom will die before the age of 5 from starvation in a war torn country is a "gift"? That kind of hell is a "gift" to you? The Syrian kids whom got killed by a gas bomb, that's ok because God gave them life just so they could die a horrible painful death way before they even became adults, you think that is a "gift"? Childhood cancer is a "gift"? 

Silly me, I must have it all wrong, I grew up thinking a "gift" was an object you gave on birthdays and holidays. If you want to use the word "gift" regarding human life, fine, then get me Angelina Jolie and put her under my Christmas Tree, I am sure she wont scoff at that suggestion, I am sure she will say, "Oh what the hell, Brian wants me, I was born a gift so ok, Brian can have me because I am a gift".

I really find it sad to see theists objectify their own lives as if they were mere toys for an invisible man to play with or pass out like a "gift".

Wrong again Brian.  
Your inner feeling get you upset easy well before you consider all situations.
I hope you are not a detective because in this case you would be a total failure.
You jump up to the first option without considering all other options.

Suppose reincarnation exist.
Before you enter an other body you see God and realize how great it is to get close to Him and merge in Him in that ecstatic feeling of total bliss but unfortunately you got a terrible karma so there is no way that you can get any closer to Him unless you reincarnate to extinguish that karma.
At this stage it wouldn't really matter to suffer terribly because at the end you never really die and once you extinguish that bad karma you would be able to reach god and merge in that ocean of total bliss.
In this way God give you the gift to have an other body that will allow you to get rid of your bad karma.
Without that gift you wouldn't have the possibility to reach Him so even a terrible life is still a gift.  

[Brian37]

@Brian. I'm sorry I told you to fuck off.
And sorry for your loss... of your mum.

Don't sweat it. If I really thought you hated me but more importantly if I really thought you were evil I wouldn't talk to you. 

Everybody has a mom too. 

I'd be more upset if you had said that in my mom's memorial thread, but I am assuming, because honestly I don't remember the post where you said "fuck off" to me had anything to do my mom in any case.

If the worst I get in my life is a "fuck off" I am doing good. Kurdish Christians, minority Muslims and LGBT and atheists have it far worse in other parts of the world. I will let you know if you really are upsetting me. But even then it would still be your choice to continue conversing with me or my choice to block you.

I think the solution to our species differences are to hand out machetes .....

[emjay]

@Brian. I'm sorry I told you to fuck off.
And sorry for your loss... of your mum.

Don't sweat it. If I really thought you hated me but more importantly if I really thought you were evil I wouldn't talk to you.

Cool It was never about hate, just frustration, but I think that happens to everybody from time to time.

Everybody has a mom too. 

I'd be more upset if you had said that in my mom's memorial thread, but I am assuming, because honestly I don't remember the post where you said "fuck off" to me had anything to do my mom in any case.

Sorry, I don't really follow you here; I just offered my condolences after what you said about your mother's death, and her last moments, in this thread. But that statement had nothing to do with our argument.

If the worst I get in my life is a "fuck off" I am doing good. Kurdish Christians, minority Muslims and LGBT and atheists have it far worse in other parts of the world. I will let you know if you really are upsetting me. But even then it would still be your choice to continue conversing with me or my choice to block you.

Indeed and thanks

I think the solution to our species differences are to hand out machetes .....

Or better yet, the chill pills or