The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[Joods]

Probably not. Both Huggy and Dripshit have been smart enough to stay out of this shit and we're 25 pages in already.

[Minimalist]

If the Sun danced, then why did nobody else in the country see it?

Because they didn't have the special, 3D, jesus glasses?

[Amarok]

Michael Shermer once tricked a whole theaters worth of staunch atheists that god exists so...

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Hmmm . . .


The Fatima thing is definitely Catholic. Would any of our Protestants here like to weigh in on why it's a bunch of hooey from their perspective??

They already have some of them think it's bullshit too

http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Relig...fatima.htm

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All that proves is your not persuasive .And don't understand religious psychology cult formation or how apocalyptic cults form . oh and arguments from both ignorance and incredulity .

[Alex K]

@skeptics

As always beware not to try and debunk events that never occurred. I don't think we have compelling evidence that hundreds or thousands of people actually saw something miraculous at Fatima and unless you have that evidence, don't feel the need to explain. The story has been embellished and source material is unreliable. Skeptics shouldn't waste their bullets trying to debunk the interpretation of events that never took place before vetting that there is actually something to debunk, or otherwise the loonies and charlatans can run leaps around you making outrageous claims that may be needlessly difficult to debunk if you take them at face value. In the case of Fatima, don't rush in with a kneejerk rational explanation how 10000 people would plausibly have seen an apparition, just because someone makes the spurious claim that 10000 people saw an apparition. You make your position more vulnerable than necessary, and give them way too much leeway by even accepting what is claimed.

You've all had this in everyday discussions: "My uncle knows a guy whose aunt had terminal cancer, and she fired her doctor and only took homeopathy, and because of that is still alive after 20 years. Explain that!"
What you then do is not explain the placebo effect

[Cyberman]

Okay, let's say for sake of argument that the people were all wrong and that the sun did NOT spin and did NOT hurl towards the earth. If we look at all the testimonials, this is what they perceived, and is the best way they chose to describe it. But let's say their description was wrong. SOMETHING obviously happened and that SOMETHING was obviously very significant or they would not have all agreed that their clothes dried instantly, nor would they have agreed that they thought it was the end of the world and that they were going to die. Nor would the newspapers have printed anything the following day.

It's not even for the sake of argument. We can say with complete confidence that, whatever else may have been going on, the Sun cannot possibly have performed as described. To insist that the story must be true and then try to manipulate everything else around it to fit is not only putting the cart before the horse, it's eliminating literally every other avenue of investigation; and for stupid reasons of dogma.

Put simply: there's all the difference in the world between "the Sun really danced around - you can't explain it, therefore miracle" and "something seems to have happened - let's find out what".

Picture a stadium full of 70,000 people. Can you think of a way that you could freak all of them out at once and make them think it's the end of the world? I can't.

Nobody is responsible for your failure of imagination but you.

No one would have been there to see the incident if it hadn't been for the 3 children. THIS much cannot be denied.

And in the shit film Evan Almighty, no-one would have been there to need saving from a burst dam if it hadn't been for Morgan Freeman forcing Steve Carell into a Ken Ham impression. THIS much cannot be denied. Obviously something must have happened for hundreds of people to gather in one spot.

[pocaracas]

According to this site, this is what was reported:

A hora antiga é a que regula para esta multidão, que calculos desapaixonados de pessoas cultas e de todo o ponto alheias ás influencias místicas computam em trinta ou quarenta mil creaturas... A manifestação miraculosa, o sinal visível anunciado está prestes a produzir-se – asseguram muitos romeiros... E assiste-se então a um espectaculo unico e inacreditavel para quem não foi testemunha d'ele. Do cimo da estrada, onde se aglomeram os carros e se conservam muitas centenas de pessoas, a quem escasseou valor para se meter á terra barrenta, vê-se toda a imensa multidão voltar-se para o sol, que se mostra liberto de nuvens, no zenit. O astro lembra uma placa de prata fosca e é possível fitar-lhe o disco sem o minimo esforço. Não queima, não cega. Dir-se-hia estar-se realizando um eclipse. Mas eis que um alarido colossal se levanta e aos espectadores que se encontram mais perto se ouve gritar:
– Milagre, milagre! Maravilha, maravilha!
Aos olhos deslumbrados d'aquele povo, cuja atitude nos transporta aos tempos bíblicos e que, palido de assombro, com a cabeça descoberta, encara o azul, o sol tremeu, o sol teve nunca vistos movimentos bruscos fóra de todas as leis cosmicas – o sol «bailou», segundo a tipica expressão dos camponezes... Empoleirado nos estribos do auto-omnibus de Torres Novas, um ancião cuja estatura e cuja fisionomia, ao mesmo tempo doce e energica, lembram as de Paul Déroulède, recita, voltado para o sol, em voz clamorosa, de principio a fim, o Credo. Pergunto quem é e dizem-me ser o sr. João Maria Amado de Mello Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcellos. Vejo-o depois dirigir-se aos que o rodeiam e que se conservaram de chapeu na cabeça, suplicando-lhes, veementemente, que se descubram em face de tão extraordinaria demonstração da existencia de Deus. Cenas identicas repetem-se n'outros pontos e uma senhora clama, banhada em aflitivo pranto e quasi n'uma sufocacão:
– Que lastima! Ainda ha homens que se não descobrem deante de tão estupendo milagre!
E, a seguir, perguntam uns aos outros se viram e o que viram. O maior numero confessa que viu a tremura, o bailado do sol; outros, porem, declaram ter visto o rosto risonho da propria Virgem, juram que o sol girou sobre si mesmo como uma roda de fogo de artificio, que ele baixou quasi a ponto de queimar a terra com os seus raios... Ha quem diga que o viu mudar sucessivamente de côr...

Which translates roughly (by me) to:

The ancient hour regulates this crowd, that dispassionate calculations by knowledgeable people and everywhere unaware of the mystic influences compute in thirty or forty thousand creatures... The miraculous manifestation, the announced visible sign is about to happen - so many roamers assure themselves... And that is when a unique spectacle  and unbelievable for who didn't witness it. From the top of the road, where the cars bundle up and hundreds of people stand, to whom failed the bravery to step on the muddy earth, you can see the immense crowd turn to the sun, that is now clear of clouds, at its zenith. The star looks like a dull silver disc and it's possible to look at it with minimum effort. It doesn't burn, it doesn't blind. One would say an eclipse was happening. And that is when a commotion among the nearer spectators and you hear shouting:
- Miracle, miracle! Wonder, wonder!
To the amazed eyes of that people, whose attitude carries us to biblical times and whom, pale with wonder, with the head uncovered, faces the blue, the sun trembled, the sun had never before seen sudden movements out of every cosmic laws - the sun "danced", according to the typical farmers' expression... leaning from the sides of the bus from Torres Novas, an elder whose stature (blahblah... looks like some guy, turns out to be a) Mr João Maria Amado de Mello Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcellos. I see him addressing those around him and that keep their hats on, vehemently begging them  to uncover themselves, facing such an extraordinary display of the existence of God. Similar scenes are repeated in other places and a lady shouts, washed in a worrisome cry and almost suffocating:
- What a shame! There are still men who will not uncover before such stupendous miracle!
And then they ask each other if they saw what they saw. The larger number confesses to seeing the trembling, the sun dancing; others, however, declare to having seen the smiling face of the Virgin herself, they swear that the sun spun over itself, like a fireworks wheel, that it came down almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays... Some say they saw it successfully change color...

So there you go.
The crowd was estimated at 30 to 40 thousand, not 70.
Most saw a trembling, at best. Spread out, some people spurred everyone around them to "see" something more...
Even though, many people remained unfased... as if nothing much had happened.
And a few fringe folk claimed the more outlandish things, like the sun coming down and changing color and spinning

So... at best, one can reliable say that people saw the sun tremble.
Is that so unlikely, given that it had been raining and it was now a radiant sunshine? At its zenith, it was noon, after all... as water evaporates and rises, some atmospheric lensing effects are bound to happen. Specially, even, in a place with the topology of Cova da Iria... luckily, the clue is in the name: cova translates to "hole in the ground"... the region has a bit of a parabolic shape, which helps to produce some cool effects in the Summer months.
Similar to the distortions we all see just above a hot road - hey look, a flying car!!


Can't say it's a common phenomenon, but the cameras present on site failed to capture it...

Here's what they did capture:

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Yeah... people... even the ones looking up, have a bit of a skeptical look about them...

[Fake Messiah]

But isn't there a major flaw in the get go of any Marian worship? Because in the Bible Jesus told his mom, Mary, to basically go fuck herself, so why the worship of Mary? It's probably because in Rome the most important god to worship was Magna Mater (Grand Mother, mother of everybody) so when Christianity came there they had to find the proxy for Cybele and they chose it to be Jesus' mom and she became mother of everybody. But in the Bible she's failed character and she's never mentioned again after Gospels end.

[Harry Nevis]

I give you credit, Mr. Wizard, for coming up with some good and logical questions throughout this discussion - better than most others I have seen on here. You must realize that the author of the book, "Meet the Witnesses", when gathering data for his book, placed an ad in the newspapers around Fatima to gather his testimonials, and he also contacted people in the US who immigrated since. If he spoke with people in other countries and they said they didn't see anything, that doesn't mean that the incident didn't happen either. I am not claiming the sun ACTUALLY spun, or ACTUALLY hurled toward the Earth, I'm simply pointing out that that was what the people thought when you read their testimonials. SOMETHING happened without a doubt, and that was the best way they could describe it.

As for the existence of the supernatural, that's a no-brainer. Go tag along with a paranormal investigator a few times and you will become a believer VERY quickly. It will scare the living daylights out of you. I personally know many people have been involved and it is NO joke. If you think I'm kidding, call one up and ask if you can go along. Seriously.
[/quote]

So now you're saying it wasn't a miracle?

A no-brainer, huh?  From personal experience, no doubt.

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As for the claims the newspapers were anti religious you have yet to provide evidence of this . And we have evidence to the contrary that they were pro religious . The claim that people saw it remotely is debunked by the fact that none saw the actual event of the sun dancing . And people who were in the immediate area didn't see anything. And all mr wizard said.

To answer your question, I just skimmed through chapters 3 and 4 in "Meet the Witnesses", and the author explains that a Marxist group of revolutionaries had taken the country by force in 1910, so at the time of the miracle in 1917, they were in complete power and had control over the media. In the years that followed the miracle, there were 3 primary newspapers that continually made fun of the miracle. The revolutionaries publicly vowed to remove all religion from the country within 2 generations and there was much bloodshed in the years that followed the miracle. Yet the crowds continued to grow at the site of the miracle throughout the 1920s, once recorded at 400,000 in 1926. What wound up happening is, even some of the revolutionaries were convinced of the miracle, and it eventually led the whole revolution to fail.
 
The book also speaks of multiple atheists who came to make fun of the miracle and were immediate believers. The book also mentions that from what the author could gather, that the miracle was visible within 600 square miles. There is just too much to relating these short posts. I would suggest getting a copy of the book.

It's mentioned in a book!?  Well, that settles it.  Hail Mary!

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Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. It was worth a good yawn. Now what?

You obviously didn't give it long enough. You are not going to come across big cases on every call. Have them call you when they come across a big case. I personally knew a priest for 25 years where people from all over the country and even in other countries would BEG him to come and help them with paranormal related problems in their homes. These people were desperate and tried everything to get rid of the problems and no one could help them. This priest was world-famous for being one of the few that could actually help these people. Catholic prayers were the cure - proof of the supernatural. Watch episodes of, "A Haunting" - he is portrayed in many of the episodes. That show is the real deal.

So, gullible and desperate people prove the paranormal.  Nothing has ever been cured by prayer.

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Wait a minute, this guy's mounting the Edgar Cayce Defense?

I really hate the fact that I can't post a simple .gif here. This guy doesn't merit words.

A lot of people think Edgar Cayce was a Medium.  I have it on good authority he was actually an Extra Large.

[LastPoet]

I have to say, I love the detective work that's gone on in this thread, as well as LP's and poca's takes on it.  Kudos to all of you.

He really pissed me off when he insulted the United State's history. I had to call him out on that bullshit, which I'm sure a) he didn't read and b) even if he did read it he won't acknowledge it.

He also insulted the portuguese history with his copy pasta probably from religitard sources. No one has to know the history of every country. But I know that of the one I born into and lived all my life.

[Harry Nevis]

Okay, let's say for sake of argument that the people were all wrong and that the sun did NOT spin and did NOT hurl towards the earth. If we look at all the testimonials, this is what they perceived, and is the best way they chose to describe it. But let's say their description was wrong. SOMETHING obviously happened and that SOMETHING was obviously very significant or they would not have all agreed that their clothes dried instantly, nor would they have agreed that they thought it was the end of the world and that they were going to die. Nor would the newspapers have printed anything the following day.

Picture a stadium full of 70,000 people. Can you think of a way that you could freak all of them out at once and make them think it's the end of the world? I can't. So whatever it was that happened that day, it was obviously HUGE. Most people wouldn't want to admit they thought it was the end of the world, and that they were on their knees crying like a baby because they were so scared, but these people admitted that. Something HUGE freaked them all out in an instant, and whatever it was it was predicted 3 months earlier by 3 children who said a lady told them it would happen. No one would have been there to see the incident if it hadn't been for the 3 children. THIS much cannot be denied.

If they came looking for a miracle, they would see what they wanted to see. Look at televangelists.  They have stadiums of people "feeling the power of the LAWD!" all the time.  People writhing around, etc. Mass delusion.  Happens all the time.

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Probably not. Both Huggy and Dripshit have been smart enough to stay out of this shit and we're 25 pages in already.

You're undeservedly giving them the benefit of the doubt...