The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[Simon Moon]

What you are requesting has been done for St. Bernadette's incorrupt body. The body examination testimony is located on the same page I linked to.

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An example of the logic presented in this discussion. A conversation after an exhibition baseball game:

Tom (baseball fan): Wow, you missed the exhibition baseball game yesterday! Did you hear about how that player from the Yankees charged the mound and took a swipe at the Red Sox pitcher?
Joe (his atheist friend): That player would never do such a thing
Tom: Well he did, I was there and I saw him
Joe: Where's your proof?
Tom: What are you talking about! I'm telling you I was there and I saw it, and there was a large crowd there too that saw it!
Joe: Well show me the video where it happened
Tom: It was an exhibition game, so it was not televised. Though there are still shots available of the game and the large crowd
Joe: That's not enough, so I don't believe that player ever took a swipe at the Red Sox pitcher
Tom: Dude, everyone at the game saw it, including some reporters who interviewed some of the fans about it afterward, and it was confirmed in newspapers the following day!
Joe: Did the newspaper articles contain a photo of the player swinging at the pitcher?
Tom: Well, no, but the articles still confirmed that it happened!
Joe: That's not enough, so I say it never happened unless you provide me more evidence. Every incident leaves behind evidence
Tom: Well in this instance, the player charged the mound, swung at the pitcher and missed, so there are no bruises or other evidence. But what does that matter when I'm telling you I saw it, and the large crowd there saw it, and it was in the newspapers the following day, with statements from fans confirming they saw it?
Joe: Eyewitness testimony as unreliable. Sorry Tom, the incident never happened

Readers of this discussion are going to be fit for a loony bin if they read any more of the illogical arguments being presented in here!

Are you actually attempting to compare the above story to the stories of Bernadette and Fatima?!

Do you even notice why your above story is a flawed analogy? Probably not, huh...

Let me clue you in.

Exhibition baseball games can be proven to exist.

Baseball players can be proven to exist.

Baseball players can be proven to have charged the mound in the past.

It can be proven that an exhibition game pitting the Yankees against the Red Sox on the day in question took place.

There are zero parts of your story that are in the least bit extraordinary, therefore, it can easily be believed on the word of the person that witnessed it.

But your stories about Fatima or Bernadette's incorrupt body, are not even in the same ballpark (pun intended) as the mundane story about a baseball game, and therefore, require much better evidence to be believable, by those of us with a modicum of critical thinking skills, to be supernatural events.

Unless of course, one were to set there bar for the validity of evidence as low as you have. But then, some of us actually care whether we have good reasons for our beliefs, and others (cough...) don't.

So, you've already knocked over the chess pieces and crapped on the board. All that's left is for you to fly back to your flock and claim victory.

[Crossless2.0]

"Incorrupt"?

Okay, Pabsta, ball is in your court.  At your personal expense and effort, kindly arrange with the RCC for an independent autopsy of this allegedly incorrupt body.  Specifically we would like the corpse tested for embalming chemicals, and to determine through cytological analysis in what respects this body materially differs from, say, a cat mummified by the Egyptians or a corpse found in a peat bog.

Let us know when the arrangements are in place, and we will send an observer (again, at your expense -- hotel, airfare, and a reasonable per diem for meals) to be at the autopsy to ensure that it's being done in accordance with professional standards.

If you fail to follow through, though, I won't be the least bit surprised.

What you are requesting has been done for St. Bernadette's incorrupt body. The body examination testimony is located on the same page I linked to.

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An example of the logic presented in this discussion. A conversation after an exhibition baseball game:

Tom (baseball fan): Wow, you missed the exhibition baseball game yesterday! Did you hear about how that player from the Yankees charged the mound and took a swipe at the Red Sox pitcher?
Joe (his atheist friend): That player would never do such a thing
Tom: Well he did, I was there and I saw him
Joe: Where's your proof?
Tom: What are you talking about! I'm telling you I was there and I saw it, and there was a large crowd there too that saw it!
Joe: Well show me the video where it happened
Tom: It was an exhibition game, so it was not televised. Though there are still shots available of the game and the large crowd
Joe: That's not enough, so I don't believe that player ever took a swipe at the Red Sox pitcher
Tom: Dude, everyone at the game saw it, including some reporters who interviewed some of the fans about it afterward, and it was confirmed in newspapers the following day!
Joe: Did the newspaper articles contain a photo of the player swinging at the pitcher?
Tom: Well, no, but the articles still confirmed that it happened!
Joe: That's not enough, so I say it never happened unless you provide me more evidence. Every incident leaves behind evidence
Tom: Well in this instance, the player charged the mound, swung at the pitcher and missed, so there are no bruises or other evidence. But what does that matter when I'm telling you I saw it, and the large crowd there saw it, and it was in the newspapers the following day, with statements from fans confirming they saw it?
Joe: Eyewitness testimony as unreliable. Sorry Tom, the incident never happened

Readers of this discussion are going to be fit for a loony bin if they read any more of the illogical arguments being presented in here!

Stick to credulity. Your reasoning and ability to make apt analogies aren't ready for public viewing yet.

[KevinM1]

What a horrible analogy. And as a Red Sox fan, I need to point out some things:

Besides, if a Yankee punched a Red Sock pitcher there'd be hospital reports and everything!

I'm so conflicted.

On the one hand, she's pretty damn fine.
On the other, she's in Yankees gear.

[Cecelia]

I wonder what the Christian explanation is for 'incorruptible' bodies of people who weren't Christian.

[Minimalist]

You mean like.....

http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-p...mmy-001357

The enduring mystery of The Lady of Dai mummy

[Catholic_Lady]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

[Mister Agenda]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

Given the posts in this thread, why do you find it so difficult to accept as a natural phenomenon?

The skeptical consensus can be roughly summarized as: There was a local atmospheric phenomenon (haziness that encouraged people to look at the sun, maybe a sun dog, and it was a very hot day) that caused some people to perceive the sun as 'moving around' when it actually wasn't. The effects of staring at the sun too long combined with this to cause more people to perceive the sun as 'moving around'. Combined with 'miracle fever', this sounds pretty plausible to me, and explains discrepancies like why astronomers didn't notice the sun moving, why the sun moving wasn't a disaster, and why some people present did not see the sun move. Why does it sound implausible to you?

[Crossless2.0]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

Given the posts in this thread, why do you find it so difficult to accept as a natural phenomenon?

The skeptical consensus can be roughly summarized as: There was a local atmospheric phenomenon (haziness that encouraged people to look at the sun, maybe a sun dog, and it was a very hot day) that caused some people to perceive the sun as 'moving around' when it actually wasn't. The effects of staring at the sun too long combined with this to cause more people to perceive the sun as 'moving around'. Combined with 'miracle fever', this sounds pretty plausible to me, and explains discrepancies like why astronomers didn't notice the sun moving, why the sun moving wasn't a disaster, and why some people present did not see the sun move. Why does it sound implausible to you?

I'll take 'Cause Catholic for $500.

[ohreally]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

Before this thread I had heard the phrase miracle at Fatima but besides that I knew nothing about what was claimed to have happened.  In reading this thread and learning about it for the first time I find it to be such a low bar for even the word interesting, let alone miracle.  It left no lasting impact, everything returns to normal(as if nothing happened) and nothing changes, that is the definition of ordinary.     

It's shocking to me that adults can think this has some kind of meaningful impact in the world.

[Joods]

It's shocking to me that adults can think this has some kind of meaningful impact in the world.

That's because religiously brainwashed adults will believe anything their god of woo directs them to.