Did Charlottesvilel mean anything?

[Mr.wizard]

Are white supremacist's being arrested for just being white supremacist's?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I stand up against any political violence, no matter the perpetrators.

Show that they committed political violence, then arrest those who committed it.  Absolutely.  Violence is an act of oppression AGAINST free speech, and I for sure wouldn't stand for that.

We're definitely in agreement here. It's my opinion that the right to free speech was emplaced here in America not to protect popular speech, but unpopular speech; and I will support that, even though it means my donations to the ACLU go to defend the rights of people whose views I regard as anathema.

Once you've picked up arms to silence speech either by threat or by snuffing out the speaker, I will speak out against you, no matter your political persuasion.

That has been the case with some Americans. Some have acted to silence free speech through violence or its threat. The torchlight parade was such a threat, which resulted in a death the next day. They can surely march, but they don't have the right to be free of disagreement, and the certainly do not have the right to quell disagreement with violence.

These people are terrified of words for a reason.

[bennyboy]

That has been the case with some Americans. Some have acted to silence free speech through violence or its threat. The torchlight parade was such a threat, which resulted in a death the next day. They can surely march, but they don't have the right to be free of disagreement, and the certainly do not have the right to quell disagreement with violence.

^

Absolutely. I despise those fuckers. They're immature, willfully ignorant, and they are by far on the wrong side of history.

BUT they are a group of individuals, and I will tend to treat them as individuals first and as group members second: that means no matter what I think of the group, I'd extend all the privileges of citizenship to each, including those of free speech and in the US the right to bear arms.

I still don't know whether the torchlight parade constituted a threat-- I don't know what was shouted, what was actually done. I wouldn't put it past white supremacists to break the law, but I haven't actually seen video of that from Charlottesville.

[Amarok]

So again your ignorant despite all the evidence I put up proving they are violent ideology /movement lead by violent criminals .

The Liberal myth of free speech

https://itsgoingdown.org/liberal-myth-free-speech/

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"Defending the free speech of fascists is an action which prioritizes the mythology of a state with no regard for such rights in practice over the very real and tangible suffering of those whom fascists seek to destroy. Fascists who kill are violent, as are fascists who celebrate violence committed by their kind, as is a fascist holding a sign minding their own business. Those who quietly advocate ethnic cleansing are admitting outright that the only thing preventing their direct involvement and endorsement of mass murder in the present moment is an insufficient power base. Every single fascist will become a violent fascist when given the numbers and strength to act with impunity. Liberals who ‘play by the rules’ are directly complicit in allowing these devastating consequences to come to fruition. Obsessing over the legality of your own activism is setting yourself up for defeat when facing opponents with no regard for such constructs. We will only win this fight if we are willing to take a page from the playbook of our enemies. Fascists and the state alike are never shy about doing what is necessary to propagate themselves. They will ignore the rule of law, the value of human life, and the cognitive dissonance of their own actions at the drop of a hat so long as doing so allows for their continued existence.
I would argue that our fight is much more important. We are not fighting for the continued existence of a self-serving power structure, but rather for the continued existence of our friends and neighbors. Their lives, and our lives, are at stake, as is the dream of a world in which all people can feel accepted.
A polite, peaceful fascist is a snake waiting to bite the hand that coddles it. Any liberals who champion the rights of Nazis should enjoy the high of perceived moral superiority while it lasts. When it’s you that the snake bites, you’ll probably just be left wishing you crushed its head when you had the chance. "

[bennyboy]

Tiz, your ignorance is the exact perfect example which shows why we must adhere to rule of law and not to mob justice. You've quoted fearful rhetoric in an attempt to bypass the entire history of the constitution and jurisprudence. You are justifying lawlessness because you are afraid of lawlessness.

Here's how you can tell that YOU are bordering on fucking fascism. Replace "Fascist" with "Dirty Jew" and it still reads. How do you not recognize that this is the exact kind of rhetoric which leads to genocide and to dictatorship?

It's important to avoid the kind of cowardice you are quoting-- we have to be the good guys, or there will be no good guys.


By the way, if you want to accuse someone of ignorance, you might want to learn the difference between "your" and "you're." Yore not really making a great case for you're self.

[Amarok]

Nope the total opposite

1. Nope I have quoted reality .In an attempt to prove the fact that the law will not stop those who when in charge will have no regard for it. I am justifying winning rather then letting facists win .

2. Except there is no comparison between Jews and Facists .Ones a Religion the Others a hate movement/ Genocidal political idea  so they don't even compare.

3. Nope it's important to avoid the wishy washy nonsense your spewing . Or we will be spewing it behind barbed wire . 

4. Evil wins when good rolls over . And any good that harbors or defends evil is not good.

5. You say it's cowardly to stand up to Facists and fight them in the streets . No I call you and you ilk the cowards for pawning the job off to someone else. And do nothing further when they fail.

6. I'm ignorant you have not even bothered to learn what they were chanting (even thou I posted what they were chanting)

[bennyboy]

1. Nope I have quoted reality .In an attempt to prove the fact that the law will not stop those who when in charge will have no regard for it. I am justifying winning rather then letting facists win .

What's the prize for winning? You get to decide who is or isn't okay and suspend the rule of law? How is that any different than what you claim they do? Do you think hypocrisy merits praise?

2. Except there is no comparison between Jews and Facists .Ones a Religion the Others a hate movement/ Genocidal political idea  so they don't even compare.

You missed the point. You are endorsing the same kind of rhetoric that the Nazis used: fear-mongering, us-vs-them, "we will win at all costs."

3. Nope it's important to avoid the wishy washy nonsense your spewing . Or we will be spewing it behind barbed wire . 

If by "wishy washy nonsense," you mean a basic understanding of the value of free speech and of the constitution of the US, then I guess so. Funny word for it, though.

4. Evil wins when good rolls over . And any good that harbors or defends evil is not good.

Here's what you don't understand. Intolerance in place of rule of law IS rolling over. Your lack of a backbone in the face of opposition makes you what you claim to hate. It's really simple-- ALL citizens are extended the full privileges of citizenship, until each individually demonstrates that he is not willing to abide by the rules of the land.

5. You say it's cowardly to stand up to Facists and fight them in the streets . No I call you and you ilk the cowards for pawning the job off to someone else. And do nothing further when they fail.

If by standing up to Fascists, you mean lumping everyone who doesn't agree with you into a group, demonizing them, and then refusing them to include them under the umbrella of the protections and freedoms offered by the constitution of the United States of America, then I suppose you're doing a fine job. Again, though, funny words to use.

6. I'm ignorant you have not even bothered to learn what they were chanting (even thou I posted what they were chanting)

If anyone of them is guilty of hate crimes, he should be brought be for a judge, found guilty, and imprisoned.

[Amarok]

A play it by the rules liberal person (like Benny ) is like a man who chooses to fight a man in full plate((the facists)  with his arms tied behind his back . Stands just where his opponent wants him to and only makes moves his opponent can counter .Because it's noble. And dies

A man like myself says fuck that . Brings a gun with armour piercing rounds and strikes out of the armored mans reach . And wins .

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And already pointed out in the bajillion links I posted why none of that has worked with real life freaking examples of it not working . Just because you choose to ignore it does not make it go away .

[Thumpalumpacus]

That has been the case with some Americans. Some have acted to silence free speech through violence or its threat. The torchlight parade was such a threat, which resulted in a death the next day. They can surely march, but they don't have the right to be free of disagreement, and the certainly do not have the right to quell disagreement with violence.

^

Absolutely.  I despise those fuckers.  They're immature, willfully ignorant, and they are by far on the wrong side of history.

BUT they are a group of individuals, and I will tend to treat them as individuals first and as group members second: that means no matter what I think of the group, I'd extend all the privileges of citizenship to each, including those of free speech and in the US the right to bear arms.

I still don't know whether the torchlight parade constituted a threat-- I don't know what was shouted, what was actually done.  I wouldn't put it past white supremacists to break the law, but I haven't actually seen video of that from Charlottesville.

I agree that pasting the onus of one's crime against an entire group is horseshit.

The threat that I see is not criminal, but rather, sociopolitical. I don't see that anyone marching in those parades is breaking any laws, so long as all they're doing is marching, and I would defend their rights too -- because so long as they're not hurting people, a simple march, odious though it may be, is only the right to free speech and free assembly being exercised.

I have seen video of one supremacist breaking the law -- driving his car into counterprotesters -- and he is being prosecuted. Good.

[Amarok]

https://itsgoingdown.org/how-cops-let-ne...walk-away/

Since the rise of Trump, official reluctance to arrest or prosecute white nationalists, even when publicly inflicting life-threatening violence on activists of color, has become increasingly open leading up to Inauguration Day, when a fascist shot an anarchist in Seattle, and the pogrom-like Tax Day events facilitated by the Berkeley police. While the Oath Keepers militia went to Ferguson in 2015 to support police, in 2017 it seems that the cops are falling over themselves to support fascists, showing blatant favoritism that signals permission to do whatever horrible shit they can.

Yup totally trust the legal system

What if things had gone differently? What if we had done as the mayor recommended and stayed away from Emancipation Park, so as not to “feed into a cycle of violence”? What if the rally had proceeded as planned? What if Nazis and white supremacists had been able to build momentum into the night? Based on what I saw Friday and Saturday, there is no doubt in my mind what would have happened next: they would have terrorized the city of Charlottesville. They would have left their leadership a degree of plausible deniability, broken into smaller groups, and killed and injured any number of people in decentralized locations throughout the city. It was to be their Kristallnacht, their burning cross, their triumphant return.
Instead, they had to leave town in disarray in fear of us, the people of Charlottesville, and the police—in that order. They sent twenty people to the hospital and murdered Heather Heyer.
It could have been much, much worse.

https://itsgoingdown.org/fought-charlott...ers-ahead/




https://itsgoingdown.org/richard-spencer...tance-kkk/

Richard Spencers encouraging his followers to use the tactics as Tim Mcveigh. Yup just like the Jews.

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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...ville.html

Brandy Daniels
Postdoctoral fellow at the Luce Project on Religion and Its Publics at UVA
It was basically impossible to miss the antifa for the group of us who were on the steps of Emancipation Park in an effort to block the Nazis and alt-righters from entering. Soon after we got to the steps and linked arms, a group of white supremacists—I’m guessing somewhere between 20-45 of them—came up with their shields and batons and bats and shoved through us. We tried not to break the line, but they got through some of us—it was terrifying, to say the least—shoving forcefully with their shields and knocking a few folks over. We strengthened our resolve and committed to not break the line again. Some of the anarchists and anti-fascist folks came up to us and asked why we let them through and asked what they could do to help. Rev. Osagyefo Sekou talked with them for a bit, explaining what we were doing and our stance and asking them to not provoke the Nazis. They agreed quickly and stood right in front of us, offering their help and protection.
Less than 10 minutes later, a much larger group of the Nazi alt-righters come barreling up. My memory is again murky on the details. (I was frankly focused on not bolting from the scene and/or not soiling myself—I know hyperbole is common in recounting stories like these, but I was legitimately very worried for my well-being and safety, so I was trying to remember the training I had acquired as well as, for resolve, to remember why I was standing there.) But it had to have been at least 100 of them this go around. I recall feeling like I was going to pass out and was thankful that I was locked arms with folks so that I wouldn’t fall to the ground before getting beaten. I knew that the five anarchists and antifa in front of us and the 20 or so of us were no match for the 100-plus of them, but at this point I wasn’t letting go.
“Cornel West said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration.”

Yup just like the Jews . Nope hate movement to be found here . Yup the cops were totally useful

Rabbi Rachel Schmelkin
Congregation Beth Israel
There was a group of antifa defending First United Methodist Church right outside in their parking lot, and at one point the white supremacists came by and antifa chased them off with sticks.

Yup i'm sure this Rabbi feels so much kinship with the Alt Right

Rebekah Menning
Charlottesville resident
I stood with a group of interfaith clergy and other people of faith in a nonviolent direct action meant to keep the white nationalists from entering the park to their hate rally. We had far fewer people holding the line than we had hoped for, and frankly, it wasn’t enough. No police officers in sight (that I could see from where I stood), and we were prepared to be beaten to a bloody pulp to show that while the state permitted white nationalists to rally in hate, in the many names of God, we did not. But we didn’t have to because the anarchists and anti-fascists got to them before they could get to us. I’ve never felt more grateful and more ashamed at the same time. The antifa were like angels to me in that moment.

Yup just wielding torches

Rev. Seth Wispelwey
Directing minister of Restoration Village Arts and consulting organizer for Congregate C'ville
I am a pastor in Charlottesville, and antifa saved my life twice on Saturday. Indeed, they saved many lives from psychological and physical violence—I believe the body count could have been much worse, as hard as that is to believe. Thankfully, we had robust community defense standing up to white supremacist violence this past weekend. Incredibly brave students held space at the University of Virginia and stared down a torch-lit mob that vastly outnumbered them on Friday night. On Saturday, battalions of anti-fascist protesters came together on my city’s streets to thwart the tide of men carrying weapons, shields, and Trump flags and sporting MAGA hats and Hitler salutes and waving Nazi flags and the pro-slavery “stars and bars.”
“They have their tools, and they are not ones I will personally use, but our purposes were the same: block this violent tide.”

Yup no terror spree just peaceful hippies and not a violent hate group

Rev. Seth Wispelwey
Out of my faith calling, I feel led to pursue disciplined, nonviolent direct action and witness. I helped lead a group of clergy who were trained and committed to the same work: to hold space on the frontline of the park where the rally was to be held. And then some of us tried to take the steps to one of the entrances. God is not OK with white supremacy, and God is on the side of all those it tries to dehumanize. We feel a responsibility to visibly, bodily show our solidarity with the oppressed and marginalized.
A phalanx of neo-Nazis shoved right through our human wall with 3-foot-wide wooden shields, screaming and spitting homophobic slurs and obscenities at us. It was then that antifa stepped in to thwart them. They have their tools to achieve their purposes, and they are not ones I will personally use, but let me stress that our purposes were the same: block this violent tide and do not let it take the pedestal.
The white supremacists did not blink at violently plowing right through clergy, all of us dressed in full clerical garb. White supremacy is violence. I didn’t see any racial justice protesters with weapons; as for antifa, anything they brought I would only categorize as community defense tools and nothing more. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees—including most clergy. My strong stance is that the weapon is and was white supremacy, and the white supremacists intentionally brought weapons to instigate violence.

Just like Teh Jews