Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like

[downbeatplumb]

Tuba players are more of a cult than Atheists

And clumsy fuckers, too!

Are american sports so boring you need lots of other stuff going on so you dont have to watch the game?

[Anymouse]

---

I was arguing with a friend (implicit atheist, but simply labels herself "agnostic" or "don't care") over email who said that people such as myself (explicit atheist who tends to be quite vocal about it) are being cult-like.

She wasn't suggesting atheism itself is a religion or cult, but simply that people who spend a lot of time talking about it, hanging out with other atheists, watching atheist YouTube videos, reading atheist books, donating to secular charities, and getting all riled up about religion are acting like we're in a cult. And places like TAM are our holy pilgrimages (I've never been to TAM - that was what started the argument, I was talking about wanting to go).

Also she said we "talk funny" because we use terms like "logical fallacy" and "god of the gaps" which normal people (I don't know what 'normal people' are) don't use in conversation, and that we just parrot arguments by Richard Dawkins instead of thinking for ourselves, and we should just be quiet and act like "normal" atheists and agnostics and be nice. She also said that if I had kids (I don't yet) I'd probably be reading them Dawkins as bedtime stories to indoctrinate them.

Are there any atheists like me here who get this? Does she have any valid points about us, or some of us? I know I enjoy listening to podcasts and following what's going on in the atheist visibility movement or atheist community or whatever you want to call it that doesn't sound pretentious. And I am aware of the standard kind of fallacies theists make in their repeated, unoriginal arguments but I don't think I'm incapable of thinking for myself.

I said we're not a cult because there's no dogma, and she said that we have things we dogmatically believe, even though they might be correct we don't think them up for ourselves, just learn them from other atheists and go around repeating them. I want to think I'm a free thinker who is capable of understanding the world without just parroting high-profile atheists. She hurt my feelings, but I don't know what to say now, and I don't like fighting with friends it's upsetting.

---

You know, they are secretly all cults.

The atheists because they use large words and preach the "Gospel of Nothing."
Grammar cops because they all hang around together and preach the "Gospel of Correct Usage."
Sports fans because they all hang around together, drink strong potions like Bud and Coors, and use esoteric language like "off-sides" and "personal foul."
Poets because they hang out together and quote esoteric writers that no one can understand like e.e. cummings and Emily Dickenson.
Art lovers because they all hang around sipping wine and speaking in tongues about paintings that no one else can see anything in.
Politicians because they all hang around together in old buildings and speak with forked tongues.
Mensans because they all hang around together and use large words like the grammar cops, but actually know what they mean.
Computer geeks because no one understands what they read or say, even other computer geeks.

We're all really members of cults (except Discordians, the one true religion.)

James

---

Similarly, some of their own arguments appear flawlessly presented in the words they use, so why would I make what would probably be a poorer attempt at making the same point when I can make it concisely and clearly by using their wording, or very similar?

Just as many atheists here wish to hear the original thoughts of a Christian (or other) apologist here, rather than see a link to a well-spoken apologist who has thought the question out, I would imagine that religious people are the same.

When they ask for your thoughts on atheism, they don't want parroting by giving a link to Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking. They want your opinion, not plagiarism, just as atheists here do not want it from them.

Just my guess. - James.

[Justtristo]

We are the exact opposite of a cult, cults basically brain wash their followers so they can control their minds (and much besides). In cults any dissent is ruthlessly crushed, in cults there are often totalitarian leaders who regarded themselves as prophets or even gods.

If anybody claiming we at Atheist Forums are a cult, please have them have a look at the histories of the Jonestown and Branch Davidians so they know what real cults are like.

[thesummerqueen]

First of all, when you mentioned TAM it should have been specified that The Amazing Meeting is identified as a skeptics gathering. While many skeptics ARE atheists, there are some who believe in god. The point of TAM is to promote critical thinking, and if that critical thinking leads you to believe god is bullshit...well, you're in good company. It is not a cult gather having anything necessarily to do with atheists. Rather, it's a collection of nerdy people who are trying to inject science and the scientific method into what they do. If she wants to rail against the "Cult of Science," then that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Second of all, it sounds like your friend is uncomfortable with whatever she (she, right?) thinks atheism represents.

Personally, I like talking about atheism because I spent 24 years being silent about the fact that whatever everyone was talking about around me (god) wasn't making any sense and I felt like there was something wrong with ME. I can't be the only one raised below the Mason-Dixon line who feels like this, so right off the bat we have people discussing it because they've suddenly discovered they're not weird for thinking what they do; they're not alone. Is this how cults start? Sounds more like an interest club to me. "Hey, *I* like chess!" "I like chess too!" "Let's get together and make a chess club and we'll talk about chess things and play chess and read about great chess players and their strategies!" Is this only different because we're talking about people's religions and world beliefs?

A cult requires blind obedience to one leader. There isn't room for more. Since there are many on the board who think that Dawkins, Hitchens, or many others are individually assholes and not worth following, but other professed atheists are, I think that's reason enough to assume the group is too fractured to call a cult. It's like herding cats. Try getting a room of free-thinkers to agree on ANYTHING much less get them to DO anything all at the same time.

[MinusGod]

" ...we just just parrot Richard Dawkins and need to learn to think for ourselves"

I might have to use that one. ↑

In all seriousness, when your friend says we should keep quiet it makes me think she doesn't have a good understanding of the harm religion causes in the world. Or she just doesn't care. The one thing "outspoken" atheists seem to have in common is the belief that the world would be a better place without religious influence, where people think rationally and have their morals grounded in reality and not some religious doctrine that appeals to a deity which hasn't even been demonstrated to exist.. If that's a worthy goal then it's going to take numbers of outspoken atheists to accomplish.

It might be worthwhile to get her to understand why that's a worthy goal, and why keeping quiet is just enabling something inherently immoral to go unchallenged.

**edited to add: Would she call the scientific community a cult? It seems her usage of the word "cult" as it applies to outspoken atheists is simply because of it's relevance to religion.

[Girlysprite]

There is also another important reason why the same quotes and arguments are used over and over again - a reason that I have not seen in this thread yet.
This reason is because the arguments and discussions are always repeated over and over again. Always the same old canards (edit: let me clrify - it's often creationists and religious people who start up the same old arguments). I mean, let's go through some of them, right?

1: Atheists have no morals because they don't have a god/bible which tells them what to do!
2: Atheism is a religion too!
3: Evolution can't be right because radio-dating gave a wrong number on this piece of fresh soil!
4: Evolution can't be right, cause have you ever seen a cat give birth to a dog?
5: Evolution is just a belief too!
6: Evolution is wrong because some scientists had some facts wrong like a 100 years ago!
7: Moondust prooves the earth is young!
8: Look, the bible/Koran has science in it (refers to very vague passage)

Need I go on?

Ask her *why* atheists should be 'silent and nice'. I mean, really, why? It is typical that many minority groups have often been told exactly that. Feminists, black people, homosexuals...

I agree that atheists often keep repeating the same stuff, and to an outsider it may come across as sort of 'cult like'. Hell, even I sometimes had this impression. And you know, like any ´philosify´ that becomes popular, there are a lot of people who just parrot along, feel themselves much better and superior for following it and not understanding anything of it. Yeah, I do believe that there are quite some atheists that just take many of the arguments and quotes at facevalue, but don´t delve into the science of it themselves. But that does not mean that everyone should shut up and-or stop using the argument that work!

[Anymouse]

---

There is also another important reason why the same quotes and arguments are used over and over again - a reason that I have not seen in this thread yet.
This reason is because the arguments and discussions are always repeated over and over again. Always the same old canards. I mean, let's go through some of them, right?

1: Atheists have no morals because they don't have a god/bible which tells them what to do!
2: Atheism is a religion too!
3: Evolution can't be right because radio-dating gave a wrong number on this piece of fresh soil!
4: Evolution can't be right, cause have you ever seen a cat give birth to a dog?
5: Evolution is just a belief too!
6: Evolution is wrong because some scientists had some facts wrong like a 100 years ago!
7: Moondust prooves the earth is young!
8: Look, the bible/Koran has science in it (refers to very vague passage)

Need I go on?

Ask her *why* atheists should be 'silent and nice'. I mean, really, why? It is typical that many minority groups have often been told exactly that. Feminists, black people, homosexuals...

I agree that atheists often keep repeating the same stuff, and to an outsider it may come across as sort of 'cult like'. Hell, even I sometimes had this impression. And you know, like any ´philosify´ that becomes popular, there are a lot of people who just parrot along, feel themselves much better and superior for following it and not understanding anything of it. Yeah, I do believe that there are quite some atheists that just take many of the arguments and quotes at facevalue, but don´t delve into the science of it themselves. But that does not mean that everyone should shut up and-or stop using the argument that work!

---

Mostly, Girlysprite, I get the impression that atheists (and others) repeat the same things over and over to Christians because they keep asking the same questions. But rarely listen to the answers.

Nowhere in my many readings of the Bible have I ever come across commandments nor parables from Jesus nor writings in Paul's epistles that say "Thou shalt not use logic," nor "Thou shalt not propound evolution," nor even "Thou shalt not think."

Any Christian who holds forth that their Scriptures, or their Bible, or their God is opposed to scientific endeavour, or evolution theory, or logic and rhetoric is putting words in God's mouth.

If their God cannot speak for himself, if they have to put words in his mouth, he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. And if he does not have those two qualities they hold forth as the reason they are worshiping him, why are they worshiping him?

Just saying . . .

James

[Girlysprite]

---

There is also another important reason why the same quotes and arguments are used over and over again - a reason that I have not seen in this thread yet.
This reason is because the arguments and discussions are always repeated over and over again. Always the same old canards. I mean, let's go through some of them, right?

1: Atheists have no morals because they don't have a god/bible which tells them what to do!
2: Atheism is a religion too!
3: Evolution can't be right because radio-dating gave a wrong number on this piece of fresh soil!
4: Evolution can't be right, cause have you ever seen a cat give birth to a dog?
5: Evolution is just a belief too!
6: Evolution is wrong because some scientists had some facts wrong like a 100 years ago!
7: Moondust prooves the earth is young!
8: Look, the bible/Koran has science in it (refers to very vague passage)

Need I go on?

Ask her *why* atheists should be 'silent and nice'. I mean, really, why? It is typical that many minority groups have often been told exactly that. Feminists, black people, homosexuals...

I agree that atheists often keep repeating the same stuff, and to an outsider it may come across as sort of 'cult like'. Hell, even I sometimes had this impression. And you know, like any ´philosify´ that becomes popular, there are a lot of people who just parrot along, feel themselves much better and superior for following it and not understanding anything of it. Yeah, I do believe that there are quite some atheists that just take many of the arguments and quotes at facevalue, but don´t delve into the science of it themselves. But that does not mean that everyone should shut up and-or stop using the argument that work!

---

Mostly, Girlysprite, I get the impression that atheists (and others) repeat the same things over and over to Christians because they keep asking the same questions. But rarely listen to the answers.

Nowhere in my many readings of the Bible have I ever come across commandments nor parables from Jesus nor writings in Paul's epistles that say "Thou shalt not use logic," nor "Thou shalt not propound evolution," nor even "Thou shalt not think."

Any Christian who holds forth that their Scriptures, or their Bible, or their God is opposed to scientific endeavour, or evolution theory, or logic and rhetoric is putting words in God's mouth.

If their God cannot speak for himself, if they have to put words in his mouth, he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. And if he does not have those two qualities they hold forth as the reason they are worshiping him, why are they worshiping him?

Just saying . . .

James

That is actually what I meant. I edited my post to clarify this. The list that I made in my previous posts are some of the most common questions and topics that religious people launch on atheist forums.

[Anymouse]

That is actually what I meant. I edited my post to clarify this. The list that I made in my previous posts are some of the most common questions and topics that religious people launch on atheist forums.

I must have missed the brief on this. Even as a theistic/non-Abrahamic religious person that finds himself more often than not siding with atheists, it just seems that the same list of never-ending questions come up.

When the same answers are repeatedly given (because they make sense), the accusation is then, "See? Atheism is a religion. Or a cult. Or an evil mind-control cult. Everyone says the same thing."

Of course, they would never apply that accusation to themselves. . . .

James

[The Grand Nudger]

Religious tradition has always dealt with critics in the same way. Perhaps they can no longer burn you to death for the offense of apostasy, but they would like for you to be as silent as though you had been. Silence is equivalent to consent.