Coveny’s plan for health care

[The Grand Nudger]

You go from "People in Canada and the UK still get private insurance to cover things not covered by their systems...and still yet opt for out of pocket expenses for things not covered by their system" to "Universal healthcare operates on the same idea as insurance..it uses the same personnel, it pays for the same services, it just pays for them in a different way." Now if you understand that people opt for private healthcare because of "things not covered" then you should understand that it's a contradiction to say "it pays for the same services". This is one of the issues with universal healthcare, it doesn't cover everything, and people are still left in need a treatment they can't afford.

Private insurance doesn't cover everything either, and OOP expenses in both countries are mostly tied to red carpet services, elective treatments, and choosing a different doctor based on something other than any medical requirement.  This demonstrates simply that your comments regarding "good and bad" doctors are divorced from reality. That ensuring access to -a- doctor doesn't prevent some doctor from charging more.

So try again.

You admit and understand that medical professions with limited knowledge are effective in our current system.  (immunizations, and ambulances were your examples) But the idea of expanding this to lower costs equates to getting your cousin with a tube of superglue. You can't view the people giving shots to your children this way, and I doubt you feel that way about EMTs and Paramedics. So again you contradict yourself. On top of that you do see the costs as a roadblock for some. Yet you can't accept the idea of making the costs lower for someone with less knowledge to allow them to break into the field.

Is that what you think I "admitted to"?  That Cletus with his glue and tranquilizers was effective? Is there some reason that we have to opt for people with less knowledge to reduce the cost of education to a student? I;m not interested in under trained people "breaking in" to medicine...medicine isn't about those people breaking into something. The point of healthcare is not to increase their economic opportunities. It aint about you.

I agree with you that the less competition you have in a market the more of a monopoly it creates, and that the medical industry is full of huge companies that are incredibly profitable and have used those profits to corrupt our laws/government/media in their favor. However you don't understand the contradiction of wanting more laws/regulations, and expecting that to lower costs and create more companies, and more medical professionals. 

Lowering costs comes from collective bargaining..you know...how insurance works in the first place? Insurance, that thing that people would still require no matter how idiotically or dangerously you tiered your services.

[Amarok]

And you still addressed nothing

[Coveny]

You go from "People in Canada and the UK still get private insurance to cover things not covered by their systems...and still yet opt for out of pocket expenses for things not covered by their system" to "Universal healthcare operates on the same idea as insurance..it uses the same personnel, it pays for the same services, it just pays for them in a different way." Now if you understand that people opt for private healthcare because of "things not covered" then you should understand that it's a contradiction to say "it pays for the same services". This is one of the issues with universal healthcare, it doesn't cover everything, and people are still left in need a treatment they can't afford.

Private insurance doesn't cover everything either, and OOP expenses in both countries are mostly tied to red carpet services, elective treatments, and choosing a different doctor based on something other than any medical requirement.  This demonstrates simply that your comments regarding "good and bad" doctors are divorced from reality.  That ensuring access to -a- doctor doesn't prevent some doctor from charging more.

So try again.

Private medical does cover everything, and you are being dishonest when you imply private insurance and medical care is just for elective treatments and red carpet service. Here are a couple of posts on the topic:
USA Today - https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countri...ealth-care
Huffington Past - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/can...570d3778ff
CJ - https://www.city-journal.org/html/ugly-t...13032.html
New York Times - http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/30/us/can...wanted=all
Forbes - https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca...e30d8e78d5

You admit and understand that medical professions with limited knowledge are effective in our current system.  (immunizations, and ambulances were your examples) But the idea of expanding this to lower costs equates to getting your cousin with a tube of superglue. You can't view the people giving shots to your children this way, and I doubt you feel that way about EMTs and Paramedics. So again you contradict yourself. On top of that you do see the costs as a roadblock for some. Yet you can't accept the idea of making the costs lower for someone with less knowledge to allow them to break into the field.

Is that what you think I "admitted to"?  That Cletus with his glue and tranquilizers was effective?  Is there some reason that we have to opt for people with less knowledge to reduce the cost of education to a student?  I;m not interested in under trained people "breaking in" to medicine...medicine isn't about those people breaking into something.  The point of healthcare is not to increase their economic opportunities.  It aint about you.

You admitted to EMT, Paramedics, and non-doctors giving shots, now you attempt to backpedal. These are effective breaking in positions to the medical profession in your opinion, so stop acting like anything less than a full fledged doctor is some backwoods no teeth guy with a glue gun.

I agree with you that the less competition you have in a market the more of a monopoly it creates, and that the medical industry is full of huge companies that are incredibly profitable and have used those profits to corrupt our laws/government/media in their favor. However you don't understand the contradiction of wanting more laws/regulations, and expecting that to lower costs and create more companies, and more medical professionals. 

Lowering costs comes from collective bargaining..you know...how insurance works in the first place?  Insurance, that thing that people would still require no matter how idiotically or dangerously you tiered your services.

If you wanted to buy a produce collective bargaining works awesome. When the produce (humans) can choose not to bargain with you, it doesn't work so well. This is why universal healthcare has so many problems. And until we can create a robot to do the work of a medical professional, it will continue to be a service, NOT a product.

---

And you still addressed nothing

And you still are presenting nothing to be addressed.

[The Grand Nudger]

Private medical does cover everything,

Tell that to people whose private insurance doesn't cover this or that, and only covers what it covers in it's approved network of providers.  This is the mothership calling, it's time to come back in.

and you are being dishonest when you imply private insurance and medical care is just for elective treatments and red carpet service. Here are a couple of posts on the topic:
USA Today - https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countri...ealth-care

People die on our waiting lists as well.

Huffington Past - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/can...570d3778ff

See, they have universal healthcare -and- private options.

CJ - https://www.city-journal.org/html/ugly-t...13032.html

You mean her insurance didn;t cover everything.....gee, that sounds familiar.

New York Times - http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/30/us/can...wanted=all

This one is such a hack peice I don't think that further comment is required.

Forbes - https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca...e30d8e78d5

This one is amusing in that it goes to length to explain that long waits (the thrust of many of the above peices) aren;t somehow a necessarry or unavoidable consequence of universal healthcare..that they're an abberation of that norm.

Are you done spamming me?  Did you ever hear me say that we should copy the canadian system?  I'm sure it could use improvement, and so are canadians..thankfully, the US is in a position to make those improvements (and I;d be pissed if we let fucking Canadia beat us at something...Murica!).  None of the frightful scenarios above are representative of how the majority of oop medical expenses pan out in canada..and you can do the simplest google search to figure that out for yourself.  Let wonder lead you to knowledge.

You admitted to EMT, Paramedics, and non-doctors giving shots, now you attempt to backpedal. These are effective breaking in positions to the medical profession in your opinion, so stop acting like anything less than a full fledged doctor is some backwoods no teeth guy with a glue gun.

-and they would still perform those services under universal care...the difference being that under universal care..no one would have to go see Cletus for the crime of being poor.  I'm still not interested in your "breaking in" to medicine.  You wanna be a doctor?  Go to fucking school.  Can't arrange that in your life or finances?  The problem isn't our healthcare system, then....  Just couldn't make the grade?  Then you don't have any business opening people up. Not in a tier 5 hospital, not in a tier 1 hospital.

If you wanted to buy a produce collective bargaining works awesome. When the produce (humans) can choose not to bargain with you, it doesn't work so well. This is why universal healthcare has so many problems. And until we can create a robot to do the work of a medical professional, it will continue to be a service, NOT a product.

Strange, since it seems to work despite your protestations. It's part of how insurance companies profit in the first place, by bargaining their network of service providers down on volume over rate.

In the most charitable assessment, you're a person with some npotion that there are people who could provide medical care at a lower cost.... who want to, but through laws and regulations, find themselves barred from doing so. Fine, I get that. Thing is, there's a more direct answer to that than creating substandard tier based medicine. Other problem is that for a great many people, you just couldn't make medical care affordable enough no matter how bad you shittified it in the process. Those people would still need someone to pay your substandard bottom tier doctors for them. The middle class would still find that an unexpected medical emergency bankrupted them. I'm out of this one completely, I have full VA and my family is fortunate enough to have the money to buy a good plan and come out of pocket on top of that. Beyond that we have property and assets to sell that we could sell..and still not be homeless. I want everyone to have access to the same standard and range of care and treatment that I have. I can understand and see clearly that the problems we have with our healthcare system aren't going to be solved by lowering our standards.

[Coveny]

Private medical does cover everything,

Tell that to people whose private insurance doesn't cover this or that, and only covers what it covers in it's approved network of providers.  This is the mothership calling, it's time to come back in.

Reading comprehension issues much? You want to make this debate about insurance, when it's about medical care. Insurance doesn't cover everything, medical care does. Please stay focused, but if you continue to insult me and talk smack I will continue to respond in kind.

and you are being dishonest when you imply private insurance and medical care is just for elective treatments and red carpet service. Here are a couple of posts on the topic:
USA Today - https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countri...ealth-care

People die on our waiting lists as well.

And you don't see that as a problem for some reason

Huffington Past - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/can...570d3778ff

See, they have universal healthcare -and- private options.

And you don't see how that's a problem somehow.

CJ - https://www.city-journal.org/html/ugly-t...13032.html

You mean her insurance didn;t cover everything.....gee, that sounds familiar.

And you don't see how that's a problem somehow.

New York Times - http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/30/us/can...wanted=all

This one is such a hack peice I don't think that further comment is required.

Just dismissed it out of hand, that's pretty weak.

Forbes - https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca...e30d8e78d5

This one is amusing in that it goes to length to explain that long waits (the thrust of many of the above peices) aren;t somehow a necessarry or unavoidable consequence of universal healthcare..that they're an abberation of that norm.

Are you done spamming me?  Did you ever hear me say that we should copy the canadian system?  I'm sure it could use improvement, and so are canadians..thankfully, the US is in a position to make those improvements (and I;d be pissed if we let fucking Canadia beat us at something...Murica!).  None of the frightful scenarios above are representative of how the majority of oop medical expenses pan out in canada..and you can do the simplest google search to figure that out for yourself.  Let wonder lead you to knowledge.

I can see how someone who doesn't like reality could see facts as "irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet", so the answer is no, no I'm not done spamming you. I do enjoy that I provide support for my arguments, you call them "spam", and then... tell me to do research. ROFL

You admitted to EMT, Paramedics, and non-doctors giving shots, now you attempt to backpedal. These are effective breaking in positions to the medical profession in your opinion, so stop acting like anything less than a full fledged doctor is some backwoods no teeth guy with a glue gun.

-and they would still perform those services under universal care...the difference being that under universal care..no one would have to go see Cletus for the crime of being poor.  I'm still not interested in your "breaking in" to medicine.  You wanna be a doctor?  Go to fucking school.  Can't arrange that in your life or finances?  The problem isn't our healthcare system, then....  Just couldn't make the grade?  Then you don't have any business opening people up.  Not in a tier 5 hospital, not in a tier 1 hospital.  

I get it. You want only the best doctors, with regulated pay so it's affordable to you, who have to give up over a decade of their lives, and have the money to be able to pay for all that time with no income. Somehow you don't see any flaws with this plan...

If you wanted to buy a produce collective bargaining works awesome. When the produce (humans) can choose not to bargain with you, it doesn't work so well. This is why universal healthcare has so many problems. And until we can create a robot to do the work of a medical professional, it will continue to be a service, NOT a product.

Strange, since it seems to work despite your protestations.  It's part of how insurance companies profit in the first place, by bargaining their network of service providers down on volume over rate.

In the most charitable assessment, you're a person with some npotion that there are people who could provide medical care at a lower cost.... who want to, but through laws and regulations, find themselves barred from doing so.  Fine, I get that.  Thing is, there's a more direct answer to that than creating substandard tier based medicine.  Other problem is that for a great many people, you just couldn't make medical care affordable enough no matter how bad you shittified it in the process.  Those people would still need someone to pay your substandard bottom tier doctors for them.  The middle class would still find that an unexpected medical emergency bankrupted them.  I'm out of this one completely, I have full VA and my family is fortunate enough to have the money to buy a good plan and come out of pocket on top of that.  Beyond that we have property and assets to sell that we could sell..and still not be homeless.  I want everyone to have access to the same standard and range of care and treatment that I have.  I can understand and see clearly that the problems we have with our healthcare system aren't going to be solved by lowering our standards.

The US system "works" despite your protestations as well. ROFL This post isn't trying to provide a solution, where none exists, this post is trying to talk about a better solution that the ones currently in place.

I'm a person who sees medical personnel not being able to afford over a decade of college without making any money and turning to another field. I'm a person who thinks highly intelligent people looking at a universal care situation, thinking they can make better money elsewhere, and turning to another field. I'm a person who feels like waiting for over a decade to start doing the work you're training for makes people who learn via hands on training turn to another field. I'm a person who feels like if you put enough roadblocks in the way, you won't get enough people to chose that career path.

As far as "paying for it". Tier 1 would be free, or near free to anyone who wanted it. The cost to the government would be a fraction of what they already pay, and tier 2/3 would be subsided enough that middle class individuals could afford it WITHOUT insurance. Again it wouldn't cost you any more money than you're paying right now.

I too don't need this. I have good insurance, property, money in the bank, blah, blah. I just don't look at the problem from the eyes of a middle to high middle class individual. It's nice to say "I wouldn't do that" when you have money, and you aren't in need of treatment, but morals are something you afford, and if your children are starving you'll break those morals to feed them. I get the fantasy utopia where everyone has everything, and we all live fat and happy. Now maybe that can be achievable with robots someday and a major shift away from capitalism, but that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, so I'm going to deal with reality. Reality is that there are going to be classes, there are going to be rich, and there are going to be poor. I'd like to see more justice in the scale of those who work not being poor, and those who don't work not being rich but that's a different topic than this one. There is going to be a range of wealths, and there is going to be a range of quality of service provided. This isn't really debatable even though you are trying to debate it. Some humans are going to be better, and some are going to be worse at being medical personnel. When you are only willing to let a small percentage through you believe that means you'll only get the "best" but obviously that isn't the case given that medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death in this country. The misbelief that a person must be rich to be a good doctor is ludicrous, and yet you refuse to be open to allowing the poor to afford to become doctors.

[The Grand Nudger]

The US system "works" despite your protestations as well. ROFL This post isn't trying to provide a solution, where none exists, this post is trying to talk about a better solution that the ones currently in place.

I'm a person who sees medical personnel not being able to afford over a decade of college without making any money and turning to another field. I'm a person who thinks highly intelligent people looking at a universal care situation, thinking they can make better money elsewhere, and turning to another field. I'm a person who feels like waiting for over a decade to start doing the work you're training for makes people who learn via hands on training turn to another field. I'm a person who feels like if you put enough roadblocks in the way, you won't get enough people to chose that career path.

Then your problem, again, is not the healthcare system..and could more directly be addressed without any substandard medical services scheme.

As far as "paying for it". Tier 1 would be free, or near free to anyone who wanted it. The cost to the government would be a fraction of what they already pay, and tier 2/3 would be subsided enough that middle class individuals could afford it WITHOUT insurance. Again it wouldn't cost you any more money than you're paying right now.

You get what you pay for.  Tier 1 service, tier 1 quality.  

I too don't need this. I have good insurance, property, money in the bank, blah, blah. I just don't look at the problem from the eyes of a middle to high middle class individual. It's nice to say "I wouldn't do that" when you have money, and you aren't in need of treatment, but morals are something you afford, and if your children are starving you'll break those morals to feed them. I get the fantasy utopia where everyone has everything, and we all live fat and happy. Now maybe that can be achievable with robots someday and a major shift away from capitalism, but that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, so I'm going to deal with reality. Reality is that there are going to be classes, there are going to be rich, and there are going to be poor. I'd like to see more justice in the scale of those who work not being poor, and those who don't work not being rich but that's a different topic than this one. There is going to be a range of wealths, and there is going to be a range of quality of service provided. This isn't really debatable even though you are trying to debate it. Some humans are going to be better, and some are going to be worse at being medical personnel. When you are only willing to let a small percentage through you believe that means you'll only get the "best" but obviously that isn't the case given that medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death in this country. The misbelief that a person must be rich to be a good doctor is ludicrous, and yet you refuse to be open to allowing the poor to afford to become doctors.

Go work on a fix to our education system, so that you don;t have to be wealthy or capable of going into massive debt to get a decent education.  I don;t see the point in proposing substandard healthcare to address that. We don;t have to fuck the poors just so you can live out your dream of being House..............................

Your entire "plan" and every response to criticism is to bitch about the poor medical students....all those suffering doctors and nurses, would be's and wannabes. That, is not, the point...of -any- healthcare system. Your focus is completely askew.

Here's a hint to get you started on fixing education....it's going to be another single payer plan, lol.

[Amarok]

And you keep treading water

[The Grand Nudger]

I really don;t get it, why would anyone think that this plan is a good idea in -any- area..let alone medicine?  Is th solution to hunger to allow people to eat "tier 1" food that can't pass USDA standards?  Is the solution to homelessness to allow builder to make and sell "tier 1" homes...you know, where the roof may or may not fall in on the occupants?  How about transportation?  Cars without seatbelts or windows  or brakes or somesuch shit?

Is the notion that it might provide career opportunities to poor, shitty and/or shady farmers, builders, or auto manufacturers really all that compelling?

[Coveny]

Go work on a fix to our education system, so that you don;t have to be wealthy or capable of going into massive debt to get a decent education.  I don;t see the point in proposing substandard healthcare to address that.  We don;t have to fuck the poors just so you can live out your dream of being House..............................

Your entire "plan" and every response to criticism is to bitch about the poor medical students....all those suffering doctors and nurses, would be's and wannabes.  That, is not, the point...of -any- healthcare system.  Your focus is completely askew.

Here's a hint to get you started on fixing education....it's going to be another single payer plan, lol.

"fixing" the cost of education would only be one aspect of correcting the problem. I get you don't see the point of looking at this from the side of the medical care professionals, you want the grunts to do their job very well, and shut up about being treated equally. Your focus is completely askewed by this fantasy of reality that's completely based on what you feel your deserve and doesn't address what the person providing you with medical care deserves.

Here's a hint single payer is barely more liked in it's best instances than what we have in the USA, and there are many instances where it's liked a lot less... so the best answer isn't going to be single payer plan...

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And you keep treading water

I enjoy swimming with you it's cool.

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I really don;t get it, why would anyone think that this plan is a good idea in -any- area..let alone medicine?  Is th solution to hunger to allow people to eat "tier 1" food that can't pass USDA standards?  Is the solution to homelessness to allow builder to make and sell "tier 1" homes...you know, where the roof may or may not fall in on the occupants?  How about transportation?  Cars without seatbelts or windows  or brakes or somesuch shit?

Is the notion that it might provide career opportunities to poor, shitty and/or shady farmers, builders, or auto manufacturers really all that compelling?

It's very obvious that you can't comprehend this, and why it's a good idea.

Tiny housing has proven to be very effective at helping get people off the street, it is tier 1 housing.

We feed prisoners for a bit over a $1 a day with tier 1 food, if similar food was all that was available to welfare recipients we could expand the program to cover the millions who have trouble finding food without increasing the cost.

But again, you aren't talking about realistically addressing the situation, you want a fantasy to work, because you believe everyone is going to change... even though I don't see you becoming a doctor and serving the needy as you expect others to do...

[The Grand Nudger]

"fixing" the cost of education would only be one aspect of correcting the problem. I get you don't see the point of looking at this from the side of the medical care professionals, you want the grunts to do their job very well, and shut up about being treated equally.

Yeah, medical professionals...that unnoticed, oppressed and unequal class of sufferers.  Sure, though..if you're a grunt, shut up and do your job very well.  Too much to ask?  Pick a different job.  

Your focus is completely askewed by this fantasy of reality that's completely based on what you feel your deserve and doesn't address what the person providing you with medical care deserves.

................lol?

Here's a hint single payer is barely more liked in it's best instances than what we have in the USA, and there are many instances where it's liked a lot less... so the best answer isn't going to be single payer plan...

Healthcare as a popularity contest?  

It's very obvious that you can't comprehend this, and why it's a good idea.

Tiny housing has proven to be very effective at helping get people off the street, it is tier 1 housing.

Tiny houses are still built to standards.  If the roof caved in on your tiny house I doubt you'd be extolling the virtue of providing an underskilled builder with a career.  

We feed prisoners for a bit over a $1 a day with tier 1 food, if similar food was all that was available to welfare recipients we could expand the program to cover the millions who have trouble finding food without increasing the cost.

Yeah, because poor people.... like prisoners, should be fed slop.  Not for nothing, but they already are...so?  

But again, you aren't talking about realistically addressing the situation, you want a fantasy to work, because you believe everyone is going to change... even though I don't see you becoming a doctor and serving the needy as you expect others to do...

Why would I want to be a doctor?  I like what I do for a living a whole lot more...though the scrubs are comfy. In any case, doctors seem to make a decent amount of money in the UK and Canada.

The point of healthcare systems, Cov, is not to pay you more money. End of story. If you don't want to be a grunt, fine..go to school. It;s not as if we haven;t tried your "plan" before...that;s how we ended up with all the certifications and accreditations and schooling and regs in the first place. One of my great greats, on account of being a butcher and bible salesman, was the guy you went to if you needed to be sewn up. Used to be that people were free to offer all sorts of substandard services with their lacking skill sets as medicine for profit to the public at large. Misery ensued.