Coveny’s plan for health care

[Minimalist]

If you think that we don't have enough doctors..the answer probably has more to do with reducing the cost of education than with lowering standards of care or accreditation.

I don't know that the problem is "not enough doctors" in the US as much as it is too many specialists and not enough doctors in the right geographical places.  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shortage-of...ient-care/

Shortage of primary care physicians could threaten patient care

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/rura...tes-to-act

Rural doctor shortage spurs states to act

I can drive past 10 major medical office buildings in a five minute cruise around the area.  I can guarantee you that situation does not exist in Bumfuck, Iowa.


There are many aspects to this problem and I don't think our political system is up to the challenge.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, I mentioned that.  It's a common problem..not just here.  People who come from the city and go to school in the city aren't exactly stampeding into the sticks to bring medicine. I don;t know why we couldn't incentiviz that though, we incentivize all sorts of other silly shit...our federal, state, and local governments are tripping over themselves to bring predatory manufacturing into rural areas. Howsabout we divert some of that corporate welfare? While we're at it maybe we could earmark a little bit of it so that prisoners and poors don't have to eat 300 different versions of extruded corn byproducts. Hell, they might not need to see the doctor so often.

Worth a shot.

Laying aside the inanity of Covs assertion that the problem with healthcare is that medical professionals don't make enough money and just running with it....that can be addressed as well. It's not as if we don't already collect the taxes and allocate the pork.

Or..you know, we could just build a few more pain management clinics to serve as taxpayer funded distribution centers for drug dealers and call it a day. What could possibly go wrong?

(I have to drive a half an hour on the interstate to get to my kids dentist..but if I wanted to dose them with oxy whenever they have a toothache theres a candyshop no more than 10 minutes away no matter which country road I take, lol)

[Coveny]

"fixing" the cost of education would only be one aspect of correcting the problem. I get you don't see the point of looking at this from the side of the medical care professionals, you want the grunts to do their job very well, and shut up about being treated equally.

Yeah, medical professionals...that unnoticed, oppressed and unequal class of sufferers.  Sure, though..if you're a grunt, shut up and do your job very well.  Too much to ask?  Pick a different job.  

Your focus is completely askewed by this fantasy of reality that's completely based on what you feel your deserve and doesn't address what the person providing you with medical care deserves.

................lol?

Here's a hint single payer is barely more liked in it's best instances than what we have in the USA, and there are many instances where it's liked a lot less... so the best answer isn't going to be single payer plan...

Healthcare as a popularity contest?  

It's very obvious that you can't comprehend this, and why it's a good idea.

Tiny housing has proven to be very effective at helping get people off the street, it is tier 1 housing.

Tiny houses are still built to standards.  If the roof caved in on your tiny house I doubt you'd be extolling the virtue of providing an underskilled builder with a career.  

We feed prisoners for a bit over a $1 a day with tier 1 food, if similar food was all that was available to welfare recipients we could expand the program to cover the millions who have trouble finding food without increasing the cost.

Yeah, because poor people.... like prisoners, should be fed slop.  Not for nothing, but they already are...so?  

But again, you aren't talking about realistically addressing the situation, you want a fantasy to work, because you believe everyone is going to change... even though I don't see you becoming a doctor and serving the needy as you expect others to do...

Why would I want to be a doctor?  I like what I do for a living a whole lot more...though the scrubs are comfy.  In any case, doctors seem to make a decent amount of money in the UK and Canada.

The point of healthcare systems, Cov, is not to pay you more money.  End of story.  If you don't want to be a grunt, fine..go to school.  It;s not as if we haven;t tried your "plan" before...that;s how we ended up with all the certifications and accreditations and schooling and regs in the first place.  One of my great greats, on account of being a butcher and bible salesman, was the guy you went to if you needed to be sewn up.  Used to be that people were free to offer all sorts of substandard services with their lacking skill sets as medicine for profit to the public at large.  Misery ensued.

They have, and do and that's the problem with universal health care. if it didn't matter if people like their health care or not then why are you posting? I didn't say tier 1 wasn't going to have standards, stop with the strawman fallacies already. Must be nice to be able to choose for others to starve rather than getting food you don't think is good enough. Oh I KNOW you don't want to become a doctor, but you SURE have a lot of opinions on how everyone else should become a doctor out of the goodness of their hearts. Do you think I work in healthcare? I'm an IT professional. You make so many assumptions and misunderstand SO MUCH.

[The Grand Nudger]

Is there any justification for this plan that I haven't already addressed?

We can fill their pockets without resorting to substandard care.  
We can incentivize their profession without resorting to substandard care.  
We can train more doctors without resorting to substandard care.  
We can shuffle them to under-served areas without resorting to substandard care.  

and, ofc.....

We can go to single payer....without resorting to substandard care.

[Minimalist]

People who come from the city and go to school in the city aren't exactly stampeding into the sticks to bring medicine. I don;t know why we couldn't incentiviz that though, we incentivize all sorts of other silly shit...our federal, state, and local governments are tripping over themselves to bring predatory manufacturing into rural areas.

Here is part of the answer to your problem...

. Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston (732 nominations)
2. Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore (696)
3. Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston (600)
4. University of California in San Francisco (579)
5. Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. (297)
6. Duke University Hospital in Durham, N.C. (283)
7. Washington University/Barnes-Jewish Hospital in St. Louis, Mo. (249)
8. University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia (248)
9. New York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus) in New York (215)
10. McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University in Chicago (201)

This was from a US News and World Report - when I went back to copy the url the site had crashed!

As you can see, the top choices for residency programs are all in major cities.  That means that people do their networking with doctors in those cities.  The whole thing is a self-perpetuating system.

[Coveny]

Is there any justification for this plan that I haven't already addressed?

We can fill their pockets without resorting to substandard care.  
We can incentivize their profession without resorting to substandard care.  
We can train more doctors without resorting to substandard care.  
We can shuffle them to under-served areas without resorting to substandard care.  

and, ofc.....

We can go to single payer....without resorting to substandard care.

Doctors pay has been incentivized and we still have a shortage of doctors when their pay isn't regulated by single payer.
There are MANY incentives to become a doctor and we have a shortage of doctors without single payer which adds a LOT more people into the system.
If you are unwilling to change the system, then all the people willing to become doctors are already on their way to becoming doctors and we still have a shortage of doctors without single payer which adds a LOT more people into the system.
We have a shortage of doctors moving them doesn't change that and single payer which adds a LOT more people into the system.


We can go single payer... we just can't give everyone medical care with it. We'll have to limit what is covered, how long it takes to get it, or even do some goofy approval system to see if patient qualify to get the treatment they need... and it'll all be no care at all.

[The Grand Nudger]

Doctors pay has been incentivized and we still have a shortage of doctors when their pay isn't regulated by single payer.

Then obviously it's not sufficiently incentivized, and I'm not sure why you equate single payer with regulating pay..though I fail to see how resorting to substandard care would improve that.

There are MANY incentives to become a doctor and we have a shortage of doctors without single payer which adds a LOT more people into the system.

Sounds like we need to train more doctors and properly fund the system.  Wonder how we could do that, wait.... I know, resort to substandard care?  

If you are unwilling to change the system, then all the people willing to become doctors are already on their way to becoming doctors and we still have a shortage of doctors without single payer which adds a LOT more people into the system.

Perhaps we should change the system that trains doctors..I know, crazy talk.  Allowing non-doctors to perform medical operations we currently require doctors to perform isn't adding doctors..Cov....it's substandard care.

We have a shortage of doctors moving them doesn't change that and single payer which adds a LOT more people into the system.

We have a density problem more than a physician per capita problem.....and moving them does solve that..but yeah, sure..if we add more people we could always use more doctors.  Doctors not being notoriously underpaid, I'm not sure how you'd track back to your plan on this one....without, of course, resorting to substandard care.  

We can go single payer... we just can't give everyone medical care with it. We'll have to limit what is covered, how long it takes to get it, or even do some goofy approval system to see if patient qualify to get the treatment they need... and it'll all be no care at all.

If you say so, death panels and all that, right? Meanwhile, I think that a country with the amount of scratch we have to spend and do spend can do significantly more than Canada or the UK. We -could- have the crown jewel of health care among first world countries.....but our spending priorities just aren't there, are they? I guess the answer must be substandard care.

[Cecelia]

It's easy to be okay with substandard care when you aren't the one who's going to be receiving substandard care.

[Coveny]

It's easy to be okay with substandard care when you aren't the one who's going to be receiving substandard care.

It's easy to only accept the best care when you aren't the one who's going to have to go without any care.

[Cecelia]

It's easy to only accept the best care when you aren't the one who's going to have to go without any care.

That's just it though--nobody should have to go without care.  But they shouldn't have to accept substandard care just because they're poor, either.  That's a horrible way to look at things.  You're wanting to essentially incentivize care for patients with money.  That makes the system worse--not better.