Reasoning showing homosexuality is evil.

[emjay]

^^^ That's how I see it, and it's only society's judgment, as per the italics (my added), that gives it any stigma. So from my perspective, the blame for how homosexuals are treated is not in the definition... as development disorder (if it is) or whatever... but in society's judgment of that definition.

Yeah, I probably have a mental disorder myself: Asperger's Syndrome. It has something in common with homosexuality in that it hampers reproduction. I cannot stand the sound of a baby's cry - even on television. I'll plug my ears or leave the room to avoid it. A lot of other sounds have a similar effect on me but a baby's cry is the worse. On top of this, I just couldn't be bound by having to take care of a baby's every need. The total lack of parental instinct is definitely an abnormality and I would not take offense at it being called a "mental disorder" because it is IMO. It pretty much slides under the radar though because there is considerably less stigma on heterosexual men who have zero interest in being a father than there is on a homosexual man.

I think it depends a lot on what we mean by the word 'disorder'; I just basically mean a statistical deviation from the 'norm'... as it in something that is relatively rare among a population. But ultimately, in the case of homosexuality, IMO it makes very little difference to evolutionary fitness for purpose as it were; as a bisexual I'm perfectly capable of procreating if I so chose, but even if I was 100% gay, how many children does the average family have... one... two? And how many times does the average person have sex in their life? Considerably more than one or two, so the rest is just extra-curricular whatever your sexuality, in those terms. If I was 100% gay I'd still know exactly what what was required to have children, and by one means or another, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get it up twice in my whole life for a woman, in order to have children. So this argument by some that it is unnatural falls flat on its face in light of the amount of time people actually do spend having reproductive sex as opposed to sex for love or pleasure.

[AFTT47]

Yeah, I probably have a mental disorder myself: Asperger's Syndrome. It has something in common with homosexuality in that it hampers reproduction. I cannot stand the sound of a baby's cry - even on television. I'll plug my ears or leave the room to avoid it. A lot of other sounds have a similar effect on me but a baby's cry is the worse. On top of this, I just couldn't be bound by having to take care of a baby's every need. The total lack of parental instinct is definitely an abnormality and I would not take offense at it being called a "mental disorder" because it is IMO. It pretty much slides under the radar though because there is considerably less stigma on heterosexual men who have zero interest in being a father than there is on a homosexual man.

I think it depends a lot on what we mean by the word 'disorder'; I just basically mean a statistical deviation from the 'norm'... as it in something that is relatively rare among a population. But ultimately, in the case of homosexuality, IMO it makes very little difference to evolutionary fitness for purpose as it were; as a bisexual I'm perfectly capable of procreating if I so chose, but even if I was 100% gay, how many children does the average family have... one... two? And how many times does the average person have sex in their life? Considerably more than one or two, so the rest is just extra-curricular whatever your sexuality, in those terms. If I was 100% gay I'd still know exactly what what was required to have children, and by one means or another, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get it up twice in my whole life for a woman, in order to have children. So this argument by some that it is unnatural falls flat on its face in light of the amount of time people actually do spend having reproductive sex as opposed to sex for love or pleasure.

The unnatural thing is not an argument at all - it's a symptom of (mostly cultural-driven) revulsion. It's a gut reaction. Of course homosexual sex isn't natural for a heterosexual person but it's perfectly natural for a homosexual one.

My point about the disorder thing is I don't think it's something one should get their feathers ruffled up about too much because it's a clinical term and it really doesn't denigrate a person. Admittedly, we still tend to stigmatize mental disorders more than physical ones. My own hypersensitivity to certain sounds is definitely a mental disorder of the type common to Asperger sufferers. But so what?

I think a person arguing from a clinical standpoint can definitely make a case for homosexuality being a disorder but it just doesn't matter. It's not worth arguing about because there are a great many people who have conditions for which a good argument can be made are clinical disorders. Obesity is a disorder. Becoming depressed during winter at higher latitudes is a disorder. Even being a neat freak can be a disorder. Disorders are no justification for reviling somebody to the point where you want to deny them their rights or even do violence to them.

Is homosexuality a disorder? I believe it is but so what? I have my own disorders and most homophobes probably have theirs as well.

[emjay]

I think it depends a lot on what we mean by the word 'disorder'; I just basically mean a statistical deviation from the 'norm'... as it in something that is relatively rare among a population. But ultimately, in the case of homosexuality, IMO it makes very little difference to evolutionary fitness for purpose as it were; as a bisexual I'm perfectly capable of procreating if I so chose, but even if I was 100% gay, how many children does the average family have... one... two? And how many times does the average person have sex in their life? Considerably more than one or two, so the rest is just extra-curricular whatever your sexuality, in those terms. If I was 100% gay I'd still know exactly what what was required to have children, and by one means or another, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get it up twice in my whole life for a woman, in order to have children. So this argument by some that it is unnatural falls flat on its face in light of the amount of time people actually do spend having reproductive sex as opposed to sex for love or pleasure.

The unnatural thing is not an argument at all - it's a symptom of (mostly cultural-driven) revulsion. It's a gut reaction. Of course homosexual sex isn't natural for a heterosexual person but it's perfectly natural for a homosexual one.

My point about the disorder thing is I don't think it's something one should get their feathers ruffled up about too much because it's a clinical term and it really doesn't denigrate a person. Admittedly, we still tend to stigmatize mental disorders more than physical ones. My own hypersensitivity to certain sounds is definitely a mental disorder of the type common to Asperger sufferers. But so what?

I think a person arguing from a clinical standpoint can definitely make a case for homosexuality being a disorder but it just doesn't matter. It's not worth arguing about because there are a great many people who have conditions for which a good argument can be made are clinical disorders. Obesity is a disorder. Becoming depressed during winter at higher latitudes is a disorder. Even being a neat freak can be a disorder. Disorders are no justification for reviling somebody to the point where you want to deny them their rights or even do violence to them.

Is homosexuality a disorder? I believe it is but so what? I have my own disorders and most homophobes probably have theirs as well.

I didn't address your point very well did I? And I probably won't again but I'll give it a go: I totally agree... it's not something to get your knickers in a twist over, even if it is a disorder. I happen to respect psychology very much, as well as being a very introspective/analytical person, so I have no desire whatsoever to hand-wave it off as purely genetic and never give it another thought... that would never satisfy me; I like to know how things work and why they work as they do... and since brain plasticity and associative learning is the brain's bread and butter, I see absolutely no reason to give sexuality a special pass/exemption from how the brain does everything else that it does.

The only reason I can see for people clinging to a genetic explanation ie 'born this way' is to combat the religious right, who argue that anything other than 'born this way' is therefore choice/changeable. But I have no intention of giving them that much power to dictate how I explain how I am how I am. But just because I see it as having a psychological/developmental cause rather than a genetic cause doesn't make it any less effectively 'born this way'... you cannot help how you develop... and even if it were changeable with psychology why should you? To please them? Er no... they can fuck right off with that. What I'm saying is even if there is any choice/changeability about it, that makes not one whiff of difference because they do not get to dictate to me how I live my life.

And even if was theoretically possible to change sexuality through psychology, and my mind is open to that possibility, it would take years of therapy... and not by quacks either but by real psychologists who understood how the brain works... it would not be a simple choice like flipping a light switch. I would invite theists in that situation... who proposed that.... to go through such therapy themselves, and then go back, because as it stands they are condemning a 'choice' they've never had to make and likewise they can't exactly take the credit for not having made that 'choice'; 'oh Lord, we're so wonderful, we never chose to be gay' doesn't fly in light of this; never doing something because you never had the inclination in the first place is not a choice or moral point in anyone's favour.

In case I didn't cover your point again, I do get what you're saying, and agree

[downbeatplumb]

Heh, IRL, I had much more dudes hitting on me than women *srugs*. Never had a woman hitting on me ever.

I've never had either

Really! I have to bat them off around here. (and I do for I am happily married)
When I go out, sans wife, and a girl doesn't hit on me I wonder what's wrong with me that night.

Come down here Hammy to sunny Gosport.

[WinterHold]

Sexuality has a very strong effect on how the brain works, especially for a kid just hitting puberty. The hormones start to work; and almost all of us remember our first days when we had our first wet dreams. I think a certain type of interaction is the key to grow somebody to favor homosexuality or heterosexuality. Hard-Wired brains just seem to fail as an explanation.

Not buying it. My gaydar is strong and I knew my son was gay long before he ever came out and told us. He has mannerisms indicative of being gay and he doesn't like girls, despite being around them all his life. Just because you were kept from females for the vast majority of your childhood doesn't mean you get to use that as an excuse for being gay or how ever you choose to identify yourself as. 

I think what it is, you are out of excuses and simply cannot or will not admit that being gay isn't what you think it is and most certainly isn't a choice. No matter how much you want to think you can fool your brain into no longer being gay - it doesn't work that way. 

This argument is getting tiresome. I think I'll just agree to disagree with you on the actual facts and move on because this thread has become redundant and pitiful.

The variables are many, as in "maybe he spent a lot time with girls instead of boys", or "he got surrounded by too many girls in a time he needed a balance of both",. I remember to this day, when female family members used to play with me as a child like I'm some kind of toy; IDK but that made a part of me "sissy" if you can say that. a small part that I also enjoy with women in my head.

But even the lack of a parent can affect the child pretty strongly; I guess no dad will result in many possibilities including homosexuality, and no mom would result in other possibilities including young-old relationships. France's president is an example.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3402012/br...dent-wife/

I bet he hated the guts of his mom; that's why he fell in love with Brigette.

Fetishes also grow because of the same cause: certain complexes and neurological pathways open up and form depending on our experiences; maybe your son's brain is full of connections that belong to females not males; I think about myself like that. I guess my brain has these connections that make me like intercourse with transexuals; just like your son's brain has networks that way.

But we can agree to disagree. What matters is our support to our kids; I'm growing older and seeing that while some actions may form pathways that prefer homosexuality, some other actions by society and parents give birth to killers, rapists, cons and criminals.

And religiously; I believe in a cause that prevent the act. So even if I want it, I must fight the bisexual part in me

[Edwardo Piet]

There may be some environmental factors but I doubt it and that makes zero sense to me. Sexuality just seems to be innate.

And aside from "makes zero sense to me" and "just seems".... the important part is that the scientific evidence is strongly in favor of the belief that homosexuality is indeed genetic and innate.

[emjay]

There may be some environmental factors but I doubt it and that makes zero sense to me. Sexuality just seems to be innate.

And aside from "makes zero sense to me" and "just seems".... the important part is that the scientific evidence is strongly in favor of the belief that homosexuality is indeed genetic and innate.

Well, in my view it's only apparently innate, or as good as innate, from a first person perspective. Ie you hit puberty and start having all these feelings and desires you never had before; in either case they come out of nowhere experientially/subjectively, but in your view (if I understand correctly) their source is genetic, but in my view, they are the result of prior environmental learning that has been going on since birth... maybe some genetics as well but as I said I lean more towards nurture/environmental learning. Either way, by the time they appear consciously they're pretty much fixed, with further learning/experience only steering their further development. So either way there's no difference between the net result; something that feels innate.

[WinterHold]

...
The Quran is clean on killing homosexuals; there is not even a single verse. As for God torturing and punishing, gives no right for people to play God and kill and torture, that's a divine right. And God is killing us all the time if you think about it; all of us die.

Makes our life; takes our life.

My bolds

I'm glad there's at least one Muslim out there that seems to agree with me on that point... that one's more than I expected to be perfectly honest, as sad as that is.

As to your views on the cause of homosexuality, I'm of roughly the same opinion (and I'm also bisexual btw); I'm firmly on the nuture... well environment... side of the nature vs nurture debate. In my own case at least, I see it as a developmental disorder, caused by the combination of the inherent plasticity of the brain in all things (including sexuality) and environmental learning during critical times of development. When I was growing up I went down two paths of environmental learning simultaneously, one was the socially validated 'straight' path (finding straight porn mags etc that had been hidden around school by older boys, or ringing the sex chat lines on the back of those mags on the school's payphone as a dare ...and getting caught for it ), and the other was the more private... and not socially validated in any way until I came out, if then... gay path. But the point from my perspective is that they're two distinct developmental paths that I followed at the same time, and came out of it bisexual, so it's very clear to me what the cause is from my perspective.

But this is a very sensitive issue with a lot of baggage in all directions, due to how much judgment there is in society around homosexuality, so I've learnt (from discussions on here in fact) that it's not good to generalise. Instead, let everyone speak for themselves, from their own experience, and hold their own views on its cause. All I can do is state what my view is, why it is, and say that IMO it applies to me, but make no assertion that it necessarily applies to others the same way. Save

Interesting opinion. I know about the "plasticity of the brain" that replaces the "hardwired/static brain" idea; that we are born with a per-defined programming into our heads which theists mostly use to explain human behavior -and I used to use; too-. But a dynamic brain, growing and being developed via "evolutionary stages" and "various experiences" makes sense more and more.
The school I was in was male only type (Wahhabi-governed), sexuality was a matter of watching porn at home which includes women, and observing feminine boys at school. Which proves the "simultaneous routes" you mentioned and I believe in; and think that both roads meet at "Transexuals"; having both male and female organs.
Guys in my school were more daring to harass other boys sexually. It was when I saw students touching the butts of each other during the prayer time; is when I suspected something fishy about Sunni Islam...
I agree on keeping it to yourself; and getting over the self-righteous phase. I think homosexuality is being picked on because gays are a minority; and humans scored well in the minority-exploiting scale with racism against skin color, xenophobia and other reasons. That's why I keep stressing on this verse from the Quran:

Sura 27, The Quran:
( 54 )   And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing?
( 55 )   Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly."

Ancients never had our science and discoveries of the effects of certain sexual actions on the brain.
It's ignorance; not evil. And lots of people fall to ignorance.

[emjay]

My bolds

I'm glad there's at least one Muslim out there that seems to agree with me on that point... that one's more than I expected to be perfectly honest, as sad as that is.

As to your views on the cause of homosexuality, I'm of roughly the same opinion (and I'm also bisexual btw); I'm firmly on the nuture... well environment... side of the nature vs nurture debate. In my own case at least, I see it as a developmental disorder, caused by the combination of the inherent plasticity of the brain in all things (including sexuality) and environmental learning during critical times of development. When I was growing up I went down two paths of environmental learning simultaneously, one was the socially validated 'straight' path (finding straight porn mags etc that had been hidden around school by older boys, or ringing the sex chat lines on the back of those mags on the school's payphone as a dare ...and getting caught for it ), and the other was the more private... and not socially validated in any way until I came out, if then... gay path. But the point from my perspective is that they're two distinct developmental paths that I followed at the same time, and came out of it bisexual, so it's very clear to me what the cause is from my perspective.

But this is a very sensitive issue with a lot of baggage in all directions, due to how much judgment there is in society around homosexuality, so I've learnt (from discussions on here in fact) that it's not good to generalise. Instead, let everyone speak for themselves, from their own experience, and hold their own views on its cause. All I can do is state what my view is, why it is, and say that IMO it applies to me, but make no assertion that it necessarily applies to others the same way. Save

Interesting opinion. I know about the "plasticity of the brain" that replaces the "hardwired/static brain" idea; that we are born with a per-defined programming into our heads which theists mostly use to explain human behavior  -and I used to use; too-. But a dynamic brain, growing and being developed via "evolutionary stages" and "various experiences" makes sense more and more.

Well it's just always associating and growing new connections... that's all there is to it really... it's an incredibly adaptive system... and fixed is not a word I would associate with it at all.

The school I was in was male only type (Wahhabi-governed), sexuality was a matter of watching porn at home which includes women, and observing feminine boys at school. Which proves the "simultaneous routes" you mentioned and I believe in; and think that both roads meet at "Transexuals"; having both male and female organs.
Guys in my school were more daring to harass other boys sexually. It was when I saw students touching the butts of each other during the prayer time; is when I suspected something fishy about Sunni Islam...
I agree on keeping it to yourself; and getting over the self-righteous phase. I think homosexuality is being picked on because gays are a minority; and humans scored well in the minority-exploiting scale with racism against skin color, xenophobia and other reasons. That's why I keep stressing on this verse from the Quran:

Sura 27, The Quran:
( 54 )   And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing?
( 55 )   Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly."

Ancients never had our science and discoveries of the effects of certain sexual actions on the brain.
It's ignorance; not evil. And lots of people fall to ignorance.

I see what you're saying but the problem with that is that the majority of people in your religion don't see it that way. And arguably... and I'm not saying it's necessarily the case with you but it could be... the reason you interpret it that way could have a lot to do with your sexuality. Just as I also grew up trying to make sense of the Bible in relation to my sexuality and making similar liberal arguments about what it said... which ultimately didn't take and caused a lot of cognitive dissonance. But your contemporaries have no such impetus/bias to see it that way, and in fact their bias is the complete opposite (ie homophobic), so I don't see anything changing any time soon in the way it is generally viewed by Muslims.

[WinterHold]

The school I was in was male only type (Wahhabi-governed), sexuality was a matter of watching porn at home which includes women, and observing feminine boys at school. Which proves the "simultaneous routes" you mentioned and I believe in; and think that both roads meet at "Transexuals"; having both male and female organs.
Guys in my school were more daring to harass other boys sexually. It was when I saw students touching the butts of each other during the prayer time; is when I suspected something fishy about Sunni Islam...
I agree on keeping it to yourself; and getting over the self-righteous phase. I think homosexuality is being picked on because gays are a minority; and humans scored well in the minority-exploiting scale with racism against skin color, xenophobia and other reasons. That's why I keep stressing on this verse from the Quran:

Ancients never had our science and discoveries of the effects of certain sexual actions on the brain.
It's ignorance; not evil. And lots of people fall to ignorance.

I see what you're saying but the problem with that is that the majority of people in your religion don't see it that way. And arguably... and I'm not saying it's necessarily the case with you but it could be... the reason you interpret it that way could have a lot to do with your sexuality. Just as I also grew up trying to make sense of the Bible in relation to my sexuality and making similar liberal arguments about what it said... which ultimately didn't take and caused a lot of cognitive dissonance. But your contemporaries have no such impetus/bias to see it that way, and in fact their bias is the complete opposite (ie homophobic), so I don't see anything changing any time soon in the way it is generally viewed by Muslims.

Lots of Muslims, and by lots I mean lots; follow bigoted opinions represented in the two main sects composing the majority: Shiite Islam and Sunni Islam.
Despite the severe disasters these terminologies brought upon Muslims; Muslims followed them still.

There are lots and lots of hypocrite bigots who practice sodomy, then go criticize gays. The Muslim society is crawling with people like this: it's a no no in public; but from below and in secret, it's totally fine.

For me, it wasn't sexuality to be honest that made me part ways with the Islamic sects. Sexuality was just a part of the dilemma which included politics, history, women rights, and so many other things.
The "word of God" shouldn't break in front of reason. And I must be 100% fair to compare my own view and understanding, to the actual meaning the author of the book I'm using was meaning; and to compare other views against all of that.

I don't think the majority of Muslims are doing so; so yep; nothing is changing soon if they kept on practicing the same belief.
The Bible is very different in structure from the Quran; that's all I can say about the book.