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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 1:30 pm
(November 8, 2017 at 12:21 pm)possibletarian Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Astreja Wrote: Kawaii! Want. 
It does look cool 
(November 8, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Sin is simply the Christian way of saying "immoral act". Surely you think those exist?
Sin in the Christian context though always means against god, against god by breaking a command, or at the very least falling short of a target.
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Outside of the god believing community, falling short of a standard that a god sets has no meaning.
Yes, fair enough... that is true.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 1:32 pm
(November 8, 2017 at 1:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 12:50 pm)possibletarian Wrote: It does not matter if sin is just one of the factors of free will at all, the bottom line is that god created humanity with no other option than to sin, in other words a world that could only sin. No matter how you torture and twist what you believe, it's a fact.
And why do you believe you have free will, where does the bible specifically mention it ?
Why "torture and twist"? I have no problem with the concept and no problems with the conclusion.
You can't be morally responsible without free will. Moral responsibility is nearly on every page of the Bible.
You think slavery is moral? Owning others as property is moral? The bible says so. What do you say?
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 1:51 pm
(November 8, 2017 at 12:53 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Whether the Bible is true or not is irrelevant?
In a discussion regarding its internal contents, yes, it's irrelevant.
If you think it's relevant in such a discussion, start bringing it up to every atheist OP concerning an internal biblical issue.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 2:28 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2017 at 3:22 pm by SteveII.)
(November 8, 2017 at 1:32 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 1:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: Why "torture and twist"? I have no problem with the concept and no problems with the conclusion.
You can't be morally responsible without free will. Moral responsibility is nearly on every page of the Bible.
You think slavery is moral? Owning others as property is moral? The bible says so. What do you say?
I think involuntary slavery is immoral. The Bible does not say that slavery is moral.
(November 8, 2017 at 12:21 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
(November 8, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Sin is simply the Christian way of saying "immoral act". Surely you think those exist?
Sin in the Christian context though always means against god, against god by breaking a command, or at the very least falling short of a target.
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Outside of the god believing community, falling short of a standard that a god sets has no meaning.
Sin and falling short of the Glory of God are two different things. Just because one leads to the other does not mean that all sin is against God. Most sins are against others people. 70% of the 10 commandments are prohibiting sins against other people.
Even non-religious people recognize immoral behavior. The concept is not foreign to them.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 3:18 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2017 at 3:28 pm by Succubus.)
(November 7, 2017 at 6:36 pm)Godscreated Wrote: I'm going to try and explain this again but it is getting old. God did not create Adam and Eve to sin. God created a perfect world and we know that they lived in the Garden for some amount of time by other scriptures. They chose to sin and corrupt the creation and yes God knew this would happen because He was there when it happened even before He created this world...
Regarding the highlight. Why would god proceed with this experiment when, as you correctly point out, he knew the end result would be a three pronged clusterfuck.
Would you place your hand on an anvil and hit it with a sledge hammer just to find out what would happen? Of course not, but this retard god of yours did exactly that with the Adam and Eve thing.
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It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 3:23 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2017 at 3:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Technically he put someone -elses- hand on the anvil and hit it with a sledge hammer, not his own. Because that really would be stupid..whereas the way he did it is more along the lines of superfun. What's the point in making toys if you don't get to play with them a little bit, anyway?
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 3:59 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2017 at 4:11 pm by possibletarian.)
(November 8, 2017 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 1:32 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: You think slavery is moral? Owning others as property is moral? The bible says so. What do you say?
I think involuntary slavery is immoral. The Bible does not say that slavery is moral.
(November 8, 2017 at 12:21 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
Sin in the Christian context though always means against god, against god by breaking a command, or at the very least falling short of a target.
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Outside of the god believing community, falling short of a standard that a god sets has no meaning.
Sin and falling short of the Glory of God are two different things. Just because one leads to the other does not mean that all sin is against God. Most sins are against others people. 70% of the 10 commandments are prohibiting sins against other people.
Even non-religious people recognize immoral behaviour. The concept is not foreign to them.
Well yes that's why i said 'breaking a command', Sinning against a fellow man would involve breaking one law or other of god's at least in spirit. for a believer to do wrong to a fellow man is to break the law and put them not only at odds with another person, but on feeling the guilt, with (their) god as well.
Yes of course non religious people have a moral code, but rarely do they call it sin when broken, neither would they connect the guilt dots back to a deity leaving the concept of having sinned meaningless.
(November 8, 2017 at 1:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 12:50 pm)possibletarian Wrote: It does not matter if sin is just one of the factors of free will at all, the bottom line is that god created humanity with no other option than to sin, in other words a world that could only sin. No matter how you torture and twist what you believe, it's a fact.
And why do you believe you have free will, where does the bible specifically mention it ?
Why "torture and twist"? I have no problem with the concept and no problems with the conclusion.
You can't be morally responsible without free will. Moral responsibility is nearly on every page of the Bible.
So it's an intuitive argument then, the bible does not actually mention a 'free will' ?
If free will does not exist, would that mean that your whole argument and scriptures were flawed ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 4:14 pm
(November 8, 2017 at 3:59 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
(November 8, 2017 at 1:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: Why "torture and twist"? I have no problem with the concept and no problems with the conclusion.
You can't be morally responsible without free will. Moral responsibility is nearly on every page of the Bible.
So it's an intuitive argument then, the bible does not actually mention a 'free will' ?
If free will does not exist, would that mean that your whole argument and scriptures were flawed ?
Well, that would be a deductive argument. But it's not just that. Take a passage that is at the center of Christianity:
Romans 10:9-13 Because if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 Trusting with the heart leads to righteousness, and confessing with the mouth leads to salvation...13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
It is very clear that at the heart of everything that individuals are responsible for their choices. Individual choices = free will.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 4:21 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2017 at 4:23 pm by Harry Nevis.)
(November 8, 2017 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 1:32 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: You think slavery is moral? Owning others as property is moral? The bible says so. What do you say?
I think involuntary slavery is immoral. The Bible does not say that slavery is moral. Are you saying the bible only condones voluntary slavery?
(November 8, 2017 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: Sin and falling short of the Glory of God are two different things. Just because one leads to the other does not mean that all sin is against God. Most sins are against others people. 70% of the 10 commandments are prohibiting sins against other people.
Even non-religious people recognize immoral behavior. The concept is not foreign to them.
Sin is supposedly violation of divine law. Are you saying you can sin and god doesn't mind?
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 8, 2017 at 4:41 pm
(This post was last modified: November 8, 2017 at 4:43 pm by SteveII.)
(November 8, 2017 at 4:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: I think involuntary slavery is immoral. The Bible does not say that slavery is moral. Are you saying the bible only condones voluntary slavery?
The first sentence was in response to the question whether I thought slavery was moral. The second sentence was in response to the statement that the Bible says it is moral. To my knowledge the Bible does not say slavery is moral--voluntary or otherwise.
(November 8, 2017 at 4:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: (November 8, 2017 at 2:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: Sin and falling short of the Glory of God are two different things. Just because one leads to the other does not mean that all sin is against God. Most sins are against others people. 70% of the 10 commandments are prohibiting sins against other people.
Even non-religious people recognize immoral behavior. The concept is not foreign to them.
Sin is supposedly violation of divine law. Are you saying you can sin and god doesn't mind?
No
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