Peterson's 12 Rules For Life, have you heard of this?

[The Grand Nudger]

Scrubbing a racist pretext does not make it any less racist, it makes you feel more comfortable reasserting it, and it makes it more effective as normalizing propaganda.  Income inequality between educational and socioeconomic peers is a thing....and it's not as if anyone is giving folks an iq test at an interview.  We can (and were) raising the IQ of poor people, but this did not actually solve or reduce the issue of race centered income inequality....because it is not the source of that inequality. 

Yeah.  It's not crime rates, incarceration rates, single-parent families, or any of those things, either, right?  It's 100% the white oppressors who are keeping black people down, right?

If it were, I doubt you'd want to be among them in any capacity...even as a mouthpiece.

Prisoner release will do nothing beyond creating white panic while driving harsher policing to fill the now empty beds.  It is the incarceration rate and sentencing disparity, combined with a profit motive, that has caused this problem.

I'm not sure what you're saying.  Don't release prisoners who were given exceptionally large sentences?

It's fairly easy to work out what I just said..I did speak english, after all, lol.

Look at you, offended by the words and by reality while affirming the underlying nature of the situation.  Typical pc leftist cuck.  See why I break ranks with leftists?    

I'm not offended by the PC Left demographic divisions.  It think that as a source of policy, they are particularly unlikely to succeed.

Again, you've got the idea of divisiveness entirely backwards in exactly the way that alt right nutjobs have been propagandizing it.  The whole point of PC is to get people to stop saying the things that perpetuate that idiocy.  Making it costly for a talking head to spout off racist nonsense..or for a media conglomerate to froth up "economic anxiety" in search of profit and influence.  It's not something that the government is empowered to do.  It's not illegal to blurt out racial slurs or to sell racial myths.  It's not illegal to divide people along ethnic lines and then blame those people who call you out for it.....but it can be made consequential and unacceptable.  

If we can raise IQ in a single generation, that demonstrates that the measured disparity is not, in point of fact, an issue of genetics or an issue of "differences between the races".  More accurately, it is a difference between how we treat the races..whether I prefer the reality of that or not.  We decided to go the other way with it, though.  We decided to gut those programs that demonstrably achieved that effect (even though it didn't actually correlate to any reduction of race centered income inequality).  

I'm not sure about the chronology of educational initiatives.  I would never support reducing educational or health initiatives-- because I believe that improved productivity due to education and opportunity mostly pays for those programs.

Tell that to the "differences between the races" crowd.  The diversion into scientific racism that you launched yourself into is the fundamental ideology behind their destruction of those programs that worked to close the gap that systemic racism has created.  Such an astounding amount of work went into discrediting the entire song and dance that the originators have had to come up with wholly new pretexts for doing that same old thing.

We did so by contending that heritable "differences between the races" accounted for their poor station in life.   If intelligence is genetic, and intelligence correlates with income, then programs designed to raise the intelligence of dummies will fail because they do not change the genetics of dummies.  Blacks are poor because they are inferior..not because of systemic racism.  Those programs..then, are a waste of money.  Black poverty is inevitable.  Don't take my word for it, ask Charles Murray, at AEI, lol.

You simply cannot lend credence to those positions and then, because you arrive at a conclusion wholly contradictory to their implications, stumble around wide eyed wondering "what's racist about that?"

-Everything, and you are responsible for the things that come out of your mouth.

Again, you are conflating fact-gathering with intent.  That some people use certain facts to support bad intent doesn't mean the facts should be avoided, or that they don't matter.

You are also conflating moral equivalency with equivalency of outcome.  All people deserve equal opportunity, equal privileges and equal responsibility.  This is crucial in a multi-cultural society-- if there are little black geniuses who will never be discovered because of lack of opportunity to develop and demonstrate those gifts, then America's in deep fucking trouble-- because China, being more homogeneous, will have no problem at all in identifying future greats and bringing them to their points of greatest contribution.

You gathered no facts.  You gathered a bunch of white supremacist nonsense and then bullshitted me and yourself about it for pages.  America -is- in deep trouble on this one...hey..guess how we got here..............

You are responsible for the things that come out of your mouth.

[bennyboy]

I'm not sure what you're saying.  Don't release prisoners who were given exceptionally large sentences?

It's fairly easy to work out what I just said..I did speak english, after all, lol.

I asked the question because you had not answered it. Would you or would you not support the release of prisoners who were given exceptionally large sentences?

It's a yes or no question, not one that requires any metacommentary about your english[sic] usage.

Again, you've got the idea of divisiveness entirely backwards in exactly the way that alt right nutjobs have been propagandizing it. 

True or false? The PC Left identifies groups which are victimized, and those which are victimizers, and seeks to protect one group from the other?

Again, you are conflating fact-gathering with intent.  That some people use certain facts to support bad intent doesn't mean the facts should be avoided, or that they don't matter.

You are also conflating moral equivalency with equivalency of outcome.  All people deserve equal opportunity, equal privileges and equal responsibility.  This is crucial in a multi-cultural society-- if there are little black geniuses who will never be discovered because of lack of opportunity to develop and demonstrate those gifts, then America's in deep fucking trouble-- because China, being more homogeneous, will have no problem at all in identifying future greats and bringing them to their points of greatest contribution.

You gathered no facts.  You gathered a bunch of white supremacist nonsense and then bullshitted me and yourself about it for pages.  America -is- in deep trouble on this one...hey..guess how we got here..............

IQ scores, SAT scores, and income are all facts, and their correlation is well-known. I gathered those facts, presented them, and began a discussion of how best to proceed with the intent of drawing together that income gap.

Dude, when actual facts are "white supremacist nonsense," then you are refusing to see the world through glasses tinged with your idealistic world view. This does not, however, help anyone-- it just serves as another impediment against getting at the underlying problems and finding ways to minimize them or to turn them around.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's fairly easy to work out what I just said..I did speak english, after all, lol.

I asked the question because you had not answered it.  Would you or would you not support the release of prisoners who were given exceptionally large sentences?

It's a yes or no question, not one that requires any metacommentary about your english[sic] usage.

It doesn't matter whether or not I would support it.  It doesn't solve any problem you intend it to address, as I've explained many times.  You're suggesting that we polish the brass on the titanic, Mr. Solutions.....but..more accurately, you're looking for a way to absolve yourself of having gone full loon.

Again, you've got the idea of divisiveness entirely backwards in exactly the way that alt right nutjobs have been propagandizing it. 

True or false?  The PC Left identifies groups which are victimized, and those which are victimizers, and seeks to protect one group from the other?

False.

You gathered no facts.  You gathered a bunch of white supremacist nonsense and then bullshitted me and yourself about it for pages.  America -is- in deep trouble on this one...hey..guess how we got here..............

IQ scores, SAT scores, and income are all facts, and their correlation is well-known.  I gathered those facts, presented them, and began a discussion of how best to proceed with the intent of drawing together that income gap.

Dude, when actual facts are "white supremacist nonsense," then you are refusing to see the world through glasses tinged with your idealistic world view.  This does not, however, help anyone-- it just serves as another impediment against getting at the underlying problems and finding ways to minimize them or to turn them around.

Yes, their correlations are well known..which is why we know that "because black" in all of it's incarnations is a ridiculous contention.  You read all the links..though, so you know that.  

White...supremacist...nonsense.

Pointing out that this is white supremacist nonsense -does- help...even if it will never help you. Calling white supremacist nonsense a fact is, as I've already explained (and as you've been linked)..more a statement of your sympathy than certification of the factual accuracy of white victimization or scientific racism.

I get it. I really do. You think they've got it right but you don't like where it leads. Your leftist urges kick in, there at the end. In your mind, this means that you're not one of those silly fuckers and you're not advocating for their normalizing propaganda. To the hardcore alt right, you're a typical pc leftist cuck. Affirming their narrative while denying it's consequences, implications, and any identification with them.

(there's more than a fair amount of ink spilt between loons on how to get you to overcome that final bit of resistence...and would you believe that it generally revolves around alt light pipelining and bitching about all the things the pc left is doing to them? OFC you would, had you read those links, lol. To that end, guys like peterson get press ganged into service. Mostly, because he seems like an acceptable source to a disaffected leftist.)

[robvalue]

I'm just firing this out randomly:

I think the best position to take is to simply have your own position on everything. Trying to be part of "a group", be it left, right, whatever, means that you end up trying to defend things you don't actually agree with.

I can see this becomes difficult when you're forced to choose to vote for one political party or another, or to not vote at all, as you must make an overall judgement at that point. But it shouldn't reflect you agreeing with everything that party has to say.

[The Grand Nudger]

On some level that's what we all do, I think.  Ask two "x"ists one question and you'll probably get three opinions, lol.

[Mister Agenda]

Yeah. It's not crime rates, incarceration rates, single-parent families, or any of those things, either, right? It's 100% the white oppressors who are keeping black people down, right?

Until systematic oppression is 100% eliminated, I'm comfortable with tracing those problems to the doorstep of slavery, Jim Crow, brutal policing, harsher sentencing, red-lining, and in-general discrimination by white folks; I'm comfortable with laying those problems at the door of white oppressors. Once nothing more can be done about the oppression, maybe we can tell what any problems that are left are about.

The amount of white oppression hindering African Americans should be 0%. And then the country would still owe them for keeping them down so long. Justice is about redressing wrongs. We have a hell of a long way to go before things are square.

[robvalue]

On some level that's what we all do, I think.  Ask two "x"ists one question and you'll probably get three opinions, lol.

Most of us, yeah. I have heard some people who dogmatically defend anything a certain person/party says, just because they say it.

[The Grand Nudger]

You can usually find that one thing a person will break lines on pretty quick.  Whether a person offers it in earnest or as a legitimizing excuse-

"see how Fair Minded™ I am!"

-another story entirely, lol.

---

Until systematic oppression is 100% eliminated, I'm comfortable with tracing those problems to the doorstep of slavery, Jim Crow, brutal policing, harsher sentencing, red-lining, and in-general discrimination by white folks; I'm comfortable with laying those problems at the door of white oppressors. Once nothing more can be done about the oppression, maybe we can tell what any problems that are left are about.

The amount of white oppression hindering African Americans should be 0%. And then the country would still owe them for keeping them down so long. Justice is about redressing wrongs. We have a hell of a long way to go before things are square.

Predictably, whitey and his sympathizers would prefer to ignore the bull in the china shop.  What we have to do, you see, is produce so many teacups that the bull can't possibly destroy them all.  Besides...if you point at him, it might make him angry.

[bennyboy]

Yeah.  It's not crime rates, incarceration rates, single-parent families, or any of those things, either, right?  It's 100% the white oppressors who are keeping black people down, right?

Until systematic oppression is 100% eliminated, I'm comfortable with tracing those problems to the doorstep of slavery, Jim Crow, brutal policing, harsher sentencing, red-lining, and in-general discrimination by white folks; I'm comfortable with laying those problems at the door of white oppressors. Once nothing more can be done about the oppression, maybe we can tell what any problems that are left are about.

The amount of white oppression hindering African Americans should be 0%. And then the country would still owe them for keeping them down so long. Justice is about redressing wrongs. We have a hell of a long way to go before things are square.

I've already said that ultimately, the problem of black inequality in America surely is rooted in the slave history.

But it's one thing to arrive at a moral truth, like the idea of restitution, and another one to actually arrive at some policy.  How would you actually reduce "the amount of white oppression hindering African Americans" to 0%?  Make it illegal to oppress others? Estimate the unpaid hours of all slaves with compound interest and give every black family a hundred million dollars? What, actually, would you recommend doing?

Let's take a specific case, here.  One thing we've learned in this thread is that severely deprived children tend to have learning problems-- this should be obvious, right?  Then we can see that 66% of black children are part of single-parent families.  Okay-- so the mom is probably having to work a lot, and the children may not have much help learning either life lessons or their school lessons.

No doubt, this is ultimately an effect of the poverty of slaves being released into the population after the civil war, but not being given restitution for their many years of hard labor, and not therefore being able to purchase property or engage in profitable entrepreneurship.

But what actual method would you use to make a single-parent child's daddy come back?  Blaming white people for the state of things might feel right, but how in your mind does it translate into an actionable policy?

---

I'm just firing this out randomly:

I think the best position to take is to simply have your own position on everything. Trying to be part of "a group", be it left, right, whatever, means that you end up trying to defend things you don't actually agree with.

Hmmmm.

I've said that prisoners should be released from jail (my own idea).  That's clearly a leftist position.
I've said that black people have low SAT scores, and this will affect their ability to make a good income.  That's not really a position, but referring to it is definitely perceived as a rightist tactic.

The result isn't that people see me as trying to call 'em like I see 'em.  It's that I've been lumped in with white supremacists, and that the many humanitarian policies I've suggested have been disregarded-- perhaps, as Khemikal claims, it's easier to discard positions inconsistent with an opposing ideology as "see how Fair Minded™ I am!" than to consider each idea on its merits.

[robvalue]

Sure, I wasn't aiming it at you specifically, it was a general thought. I've only vaguely been following the huge exchanges here.