On Hell and Forgiveness

[LadyForCamus]

I get the impression you’re trying to paint my objection as some kind of emotional appeal, but it isn’t. it’s a logical one: If it is true that god is a rational, intelligent mind who is bound by his nature, then it follows that god’s actions must be logically consistent with his expressed goals and desires. If god’s expressed goal is to save as many souls as possible, then any action (or inaction) that fails to secure the best possible outcome is logically inconsistent with that goal. 

First, God could have multiple goals or multi-level goals. Second, part of God's knowledge is that of counterfactuals. He would know that if Person A was given sufficient evidence, they would freely choose to have a relationship with him (his goal). Alternatively, he would know that Person B would not. The solution is that God will provide the sufficient evidence (customized) for Person A.  This solution has the added benefit of working for all places and all generations. Do I know perfectly how this works? No. But it does serve to gut your conclusion that God would logically show himself if he existed.

The solution has the benefit of being an ad hoc rationalization for why god does not perform an act that is well within his capabilities and seems intuitively obvious, but it’s not a defeater to my premise.  There is no reason to think that god making himself indisputably known via this “message in the sky” you speak of wouldn’t yield a net greater number of humans choosing to have a relationship with him. And I should expect that relationship is, if not his only goal, at least his most important one, considering it’s the only one that carries a consequence of eternal suffering if we don’t hold up our end of the bargain.

[robvalue]

God can just achieve whatever he wants instantly, can he not? He could put everything and everyone into exactly the state he wants them to be, right now. Or is there some random restriction placed on him, when his power becomes an inconvenience?

The idea of long term goals is a very human idea. We have to plan, watch things play out, put effort in and overcome obstacles. Also, a goal implies the possibility of failure. I assume any obstacles god has he has made himself, and could unmake them just as easily.

[Something about free will.] Yes of course. Free will. The "your Snoke theory sucks" card of apologetics. Am I an entirely predictable agent, or not? If I am, I have no freedom from anything. I’ve been programmed. If I’m not, then god doesn’t know what I’m going to do, so I could screw up his goals. This latter option is way better for apologists, if they could allow god this "weakness". It gives at least some level of excuse, rather than him simply watching a theatre he planned out from the start, which he decided needs to feel its suffering.

[OakTree500]

My problem with an all knowing/powerful god is:

Theists say god is "All Knowing" and "All Powerful". I mean he/she/it created the universe in, what was essentially, a thought. Right? If that is the case, "God" knows everything that has happened or will happen. As such, god would have known, that in creating Adam/Eve, Eve would eat from the tree of knowledge. It KNEW that, and still didn't do anything about it. It also knew that by a creature that he created doing this, for some reason creates "original sin" and he would end up crucifying it's own son (Jesus) later down the line for it to forgive us..........FOR SOMETHING IT KNEW WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND DID NOTHING ABOUT.

Many Theists say "well he left the choice to them, so it's there fault etc". Well I put to you my favorite example, I've used a few times now: If I put a bomb in my house, on the table, with a giant red button on it, and said to my 8 year old daughter "I'm popping out for a bit, DON'T PRESS THAT BUTTON", within 5 seconds of me leaving the house, it would explode. I KNOW that she would press it, yet I'm not all knowing and powerful, and the fact my daughter has freewill/no higher knowledge, much like you might expect Adam/Eve to have. I'd also go to jail for such an act, because it's fucking neglect. 

And that's why having an all powerful, all knowing god, IS TOTAL HORSE SHIT, because if it's true, then god is either A) Just a total asshole [For example: why flood the world at all? Just think about starting a new world or don't] or B) isn't and just doesn't care. OR, alternatively, C) that said god isn't all knowing/powerful, which means it's powers have limits, which means there could be another being more powerful and/or god is just super-powered alien of some description. The old "Can god make a weight so heavy, that itself cannot lift?" comes to mind. [If it can, it has limits. If it can't, It's not all powerful etc]

It's one of many things that if you stop to think about it, it makes no sense at all.

[Mystic]

LadyForCamus, God is beyond description and perception, so the only way we can know him is through something that points to him. How can something point to him?  Like Jesus was the spirit of God that is a spirit from God and the holy spirit, he was then God's proof, and a perfect pointer to God.

God's words are the true Kings on earth.

If we can see God directly, the fallen Angels would not have rebelled against the order of the heavens nor would anyone dispute regarding him.

God created and trusted his Prophets and chosen Angels, to represent him, and trusting a noble spirit like Gabriel, who is an Angel and also instance of the holy spirit, is linked to trusting God.

As God is most truthful in word, his books also, are a means to God but they are to be understood through the household of the reminder of the time.

The fact is the trust of the highest path to God, at the end, he has to believe he get's his power and revelation from God.

God always speaks through a veil, be it an Angel or the highest aspect of a human, but God cannot talk directly to anyone.

Thus the signs of God are linked to belief in God. His words are linked to God. His path and rope points to God.

We have to appreciate those bounties of God as signs of God and means to him.

It's impossible to approach the question of who God is without them.

[The Grand Nudger]

No one is interested in crowning your boyfriend king of all the things.  Do you have any idea of how ridiculous you sound, start to finish,..even in the mundane comments, to your intended audience?

There aren't exactly a bunch of fucking monarchists wandering around anymore.

If your boyfriend wants to say hi to any of us, I presume that he can manage it himself. You're not helpful in any way. If I was your boyfriend, I wouldn't send you out ahead to work a crowd for me...because you're clearly bad at it.

[LadyForCamus]

LadyForCamus, God is beyond description and perception, so the only way we can know him is through something that points to him. How can something point to him?  Like Jesus was the spirit of God that is a spirit from God and the holy spirit, he was then God's proof, and a perfect pointer to God.

God's words are the true Kings on earth.

If we can see God directly, the fallen Angels would not have rebelled against the order of the heavens nor would anyone dispute regarding him.

God created and trusted his Prophets and chosen Angels, to represent him, and trusting a noble spirit like Gabriel, who is an Angel and also instance of the holy spirit, is linked to trusting God.

As God is most truthful in word, his books also, are a means to God but they are to be understood through the household of the reminder of the time.

The fact is the trust of the highest path to God, at the end, he has to believe he get's his power and revelation from God.

God always speaks through a veil, be it an Angel or the highest aspect of a human, but God cannot talk directly to anyone.

Thus the signs of God are linked to belief in God. His words are linked to God. His path and rope points to God.

We have to appreciate those bounties of God as signs of God and means to him.

It's impossible to approach the question of who God is without them.

1. Literally nothing of what you posted above has anything to do with my OP.

2. An old book with a bunch of claims about people who thought they were talking to a god  is not proof.  Your “argument” is a giant question-begging fallacy, and you have no evidence at all.

[Abaddon_ire]

LadyForCamus, God is beyond description and perception,

Which means you can't know anything about him/her/it/housecat either.

so the only way we can know him is through something that points to him.

A. Nothing points to him/her/it/housecat.
B. Unsupported assertion.

How can something point to him?  Like Jesus was the spirit of God that is a spirit from God and the holy spirit, he was then God's proof, and a perfect pointer to God.

Unsupported assertion and borderline gibberish. Also, circular.

God's words are the true Kings on earth.

How do you know what gunderscored's words are?

If we can see God directly, the fallen Angels would not have rebelled against the order of the heavens nor would anyone dispute regarding him.

And now you are simply making up crap.

God created and trusted his Prophets and chosen Angels, to represent him, and trusting a noble spirit like Gabriel, who is an Angel and also instance of the holy spirit, is linked to trusting God.

As God is most truthful in word, his books also, are a means to God but they are to be understood through the household of the reminder of the time.

The fact is the trust of the highest path to God, at the end, he has to believe he get's his power and revelation from God.

God always speaks through a veil, be it an Angel or the highest aspect of a human, but God cannot talk directly to anyone.

Thus the signs of God are linked to belief in God. His words are linked to God. His path and rope points to God.

We have to appreciate those bounties of God as signs of God and means to him.[/quote]What a load of bollocks.

It's impossible to approach the question of who God is without them.

Wrong.

Whatever you are imbibing, you should just stop.

[kelseck]

LFC. I do not believe a forgiving God could condemn anyone to hell. If we are talking about the OT 'wrath' of God, every primitive culture that had a form of religion blamed someone or something for poor harvest or livestock deaths. If our idea of God is based on primitive cultural assumptions then he will always be manifested as a monster god, if not for us than for our 'enemies'.

Your questions are all perfect in exposing the faulty mindset of most Christians today. The biblical Jesus reveals God to be the personification of love. If God is how Western Christianity has presented Him to be, then I would be shedding my belief in gods as well. Our representation of our Christian beliefs has been nothing short of anti-christ behavior spewing hatred at everyone who does not blindly follow.