My proofs for Islam

[Brian37]

If what you say about me is true Jo, than I hope God forgives me and changes me. If what you say is false and out of spite, I hope God forgives you and changes you.

Try this, try considering that there is no God, and only YOU have anything to say about the direction of your life? You've spent years here, like the Christians here, trying to convince us we need a cosmic security guard.

Only you can change you. I used to be you. I used to be romantic in my thinking as a teen and young adult, not just with god claims, but with relationships with females. The only thing that got me was trouble, and needlessly self inflicted trouble. I grew out of that, accepted the world as it is, not how I wished it would be.

Stop worrying about the things you cannot change, and worry about what you can do for yourself. Nobody here is going to force you by gunpoint to adapt our position. If you never leave your belief, we wont stick you in an oven. But at a minimum, stop chasing utopias. Just be realistic about life. 

It really will be ok. The world will not end if you don't become a hero. The world will not end if you don't get everything you want. The world will not end if others exist who do not think like you do.  Be you, work on you, but do it in the context of knowing all 7 billion of us will not be on the same page 100% of the time.

[LadyForCamus]

LadyForCamus, if there is no way to getting to know our true selves mainly because there is no true self, then there is only misleading ways and all would be chasing the wind and it would be like seeking treasure at the end of the rainbow, there is nothing there.  That destroys the meaning of all actions, it destroys everything we hold dear.

I went through two weeks where it seemed I was an illusion. 

We can keep discussing or move on, up to you.

False dichotomy.  This mistake has already been pointed out to you.  That you continue to make it shows that you don't learn from your mistakes.  Largely because you don't want to learn from them.  You prefer your special brand of ignorance and delusion to the truth, because your beliefs shield you from truths that you find unpleasant.  And the worst part about it is that your fears themselves are not well justified.  Many people fear that life is meaningless, but it's an open question whether it actually is or not, so jumping to the conclusion that it is, and from there jumping to embracing the warm comfort of a religious security blanket is simply compounding one error with another.  Even if your arguments were not pure crap, we likely wouldn't trust them anyway because in everything you do you prove yourself to be a very foolish person.

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To be fair to MK, most humans do not like thinking they are finite, it reminds them of their mortality. 

It's also worth pointing out that it is that fear which keeps us alive.  If we didn't have that fear, none of us would be here. (addressed to Mystic)

So by insulating yourself from that fear, you are actually embracing death, not embracing love.  Love cares about it's beloved and fears for it.  What you have isn't love.

I think at heart you're just a romantic with a bunch of dreamy notions about love that are based in the Quran and the ignorance of youth.  If real love bit you in the ass you wouldn't recognize it.  Ask Camoo what love is.  She has two children and a successful marriage.  She knows.  You don't.  You're too busy chasing after whatever your peener points at.

Dude...me in a house with three males...it’s a really fine line between love and hate sometimes, and those feelings are most certainly NOT an illusion. 😂❤️

[Mystic]

Dude...me in a house with three males...it’s a really fine line between love and hate sometimes, and those feelings are most certainly NOT an illusion. 😂❤️

I am not married mainly because of schizophrenia and bipolar and how I didn't handle my illness well enough. But I'm a 3rd year computer science student, only 4 comp sci courses left, almost out of school, and hopefully when I get my career going, I will get married.

I'm trying to improve my life, and I hope one day I will have a loving wife on my side, I'm really tired of being alone.

[LadyForCamus]

I am not going any further in the discussion with you until you address my content below.  


You haven’t earned the the right to go a step further in your argument until you address these two issues.  Stop trying to wiggle out of defending your assertions.

I am saying it perhaps is properly basic and all we can do is appeal to other proper basic facts that would contradict it.

Oh, so now we’re going to go down the ‘properly basic beliefs’ rabbit hole because you can’t support your bare assertions?  Reformed epistemology is a load of BS, and you know it.  ‘I can’t justify my beliefs so I’ll just assert that I don’t need to.’  Well, consider me convinced!  You have failed, utterly, MK.  Accept it and move on.

[Mystic]

You believe there is no properly basic beliefs at all?

[The Grand Nudger]

If what you say about me is true Jo, than I hope God forgives me and changes me. If what you say is false and out of spite, I hope God forgives you and changes you.

There is no god to change either of you, and if there were a god..all indications are that the work of change is left up to the individual in any case.  Pleading to the cosmos to change you or your life will leave you in precisely the same state of affairs that you were in in that moment of pleading.  

You are voicing out what you've referred to as misguided suspicions, arising from fear.   No one tells you that your argument is faulty out of spite.  No one tells you that what you are referring to as love is an empty premise out of spite.  No one tells you anything.because they;re under the power of evil magic,. All of this is false and unhealthy ideation. Most people can empathize to one extent or another what has lead you down this path.  

Personally, I found myself largely freed of existential anxiety by sheer misfortune (or misadventure..I suppose you could call it).  I've been in situations where it was made clear to me that my view of self and another..even in love, where nothing more or less than illusory.  All of your what ifs...are old friends of mine...not fears of what may come or what might be if some other cherished thing were untrue, but an understanding of what has been and is regardless of what else may be true.

These things can feel miserable.  That misery simply does not produce a god, and fleeing from the reality of those fears will not make them go away or reduce that misery. At some point you simply have to stand up and stare them down for what they are, as what you are. You aren't going to find comfort in a wife..in any of this. To be blunt, this sort of thinking will wreck whatever comfort could be found in companionship - and I've been there too.

It was only when I faced my own fears and sought the self knowledge required to effect those changes in my life, personally...that needed to be had, that I found the peace of mind you seek in the ramblings of some fucking loony cultist and their neverending dissatisfaction with the succession of long dead cheiftans.

[Angrboda]

I don't care what you think of me for my own sake Jo, but only that, I am concerned by that you become further lost in your confusion.

As many people on this forum can attest, confusion is an item that I carry in very limited stock, if at all. You assume that I am in confusion because I disagree with you on mattters of which you are certain. You think I am in confusion regarding these matters. As the testimony of others can make clear, your presupposition that I am in great confusion regarding this matter when I am not in most other matters strongly suggests that your pre-supposition is wrong. Your own eyes and the testimony of others can readily make this plain to you. You choose to think otherwise because you are foolish and allow certainty to be your only guide. It's said that a man who is his own attorney has a fool for a client. You invest far too heavily in your own opinion and almost completely dismiss the opinions of others. You were not built this way. You are a social animal whose survival depends upon his relying upon others for support and guidance, a fact which you yourself acknowledge, though you prefer to believe that only true guidance can come from God. But you fail to take advantage of guidance from others on matters that don't depend upon God, such as whether or not I am likely confused or not. You are a defective unit who has turned against his own and made an island of himself. I repeat that you were not built this way, or, at worst, it is not the way you were supposed to function. That may or may not be related to your illness. I'm not implying that it is or saying this out of spite, but only to acknowledge that there are complications here which cannot be ignored. I neither assign fault to your religion, your self, or your illness. But whatever the cause, you are far off course and drifting farther. And your peers can attest to that, too. You just prefer being an island and going against what otherwise is or should be your nature. That's probably a part of your nature, too. The same is true to a greater or lesser extent in all of us. I think, perhaps, for reasons I'll simply leave open, you depend on yourself and deny others to a greater extent than others. I suspect you are in that way generally imbalanced, but it might be simply a polarizing effect of your religious beliefs. Regardless, you are discarding resources that are at your disposal to help lead you to truth because they do not lead you to the truth that you want to believe. Your heart is leading, and your head has become little more than an impotent slave, mercilessly serving at the whim of your desires. That won't lead you to truth. Emotion and the heart is an important component of the search for truth, but only when it is balanced with reason. I don't think you are balanced that way, and I could point to numerous and plentiful comments that you've made as evidence of that proposition.

I got rather off track, there, probably because what I feel for you is in fact the opposite of spite, though I am somewhat reluctant to acknowledge it. The point is that if you're relying on yourself to the exclusion of what your peers and other evidence not related to religion can tell you, you're not well balanced and you are worsening your chances of succeeeding rather than enhancing them by doing so.

[Brian37]

Dude...me in a house with three males...it’s a really fine line between love and hate sometimes, and those feelings are most certainly NOT an illusion. 😂❤️

I am not married mainly because of schizophrenia and bipolar and how I didn't handle my illness well enough. But I'm a 3rd year computer science student, only 4 comp sci courses left, almost out of school, and hopefully when I get my career going, I will get married.

I'm trying to improve my life, and I hope one day I will have a loving wife on my side, I'm really tired of being alone.

MK, I am being very serious no joking here. Mental illness is quite normal in humans. It is nothing to be ashamed of. I would say though, even with other religions, trying to solve those issues with old mythology far too often makes the problem worse.

I would say looking up the science behind your maladies and neurologically why those things occur will be a better solution. 

I suffer from anxiety and depression myself. It doesn't make you bad or evil. It just means humans are imperfect. 

And as far as being alone? I am 52, been through the dating and marriage, and divorce. It is far better to be alone than to be in a bad relationship.

Nothing wrong with wanting a relationship. But having a healthy relationship is far more important than simply having one. Even in family/work/friendships. 

Healthy relationships involve good communication skills, and are not about dominance over the other, but problem solving together. And relationships also include being able to part company without animosity if it isn't working out.

I really do wish you luck. And if you want a relationship that is fine too. But as I said before, don't chase utopias.

[Angrboda]

I am saying it perhaps is properly basic and all we can do is appeal to other proper basic facts that would contradict it. 

One of the properties of some properly basic beliefs is that they are incorrigible. That to deny them would result in a contradiction or logical inconsistency. It wouldn't be conclusive, whether your belief were incorrigible or not, but if it were, you would have a strong argument for your belief, and if it weren't, then at least you've narrowed the field with respect to what you can argue on its behalf.

Properly basic beliefs, justification, foundationalism and the corresponding epistemology in general are very broad topics, so a discussion of what makes a belief properly basic could easily get mired in detail and go nowhere. But at a minimum, I would have to ask whether you are appealing to some form of reformed epistemology, or more classical foundationalism. The distinction matters, and the term 'basic belief' is used in both.

Beyond that, the purpose of argument is to persuade. If you think that something is properly basic, and those you are attempting to persuade do not, you're not going to succeed in persuading them. So if we have a difference over what is and is not properly basic, and the rest depends upon that, then we have to stop right here. We can go no further and further attempts to persuade us on the basis of it being a properly basic belief is just spamming. You will have stopped talking to us, and simply be talking to yourself.

The only additional thing I would add is that reasonable and healthy adults disagree as to whether something is or is not properly basic, then that is a strong prima facie case against that being a properly basic belief, so assuming it is without any additional evidence that it is in the face of that disagreement is substituting a weak case for a strong one, and that's simply illogical. You need a lot more than "I believe it is properly basic" if there is considerable disagreement as to the fact, and that's a bar, which, simply from an impressionistic standpoint as someone familiar with the epistemological issues, a very high bar, and one that you are unlikely to meet.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I don't care what you think of me for my own sake Jo, but only that, I am concerned by that you become further lost in your confusion.

As many people on this forum can attest, confusion is an item that I carry in very limited stock, if at all.  You assume that I am in confusion because I disagree with you on mattters of which you are certain.  You think I am in confusion regarding these matters.  As the testimony of others can make clear, your presupposition that I am in great confusion regarding this matter when I am not in most other matters strongly suggests that your pre-supposition is wrong.  Your own eyes and the testimony of others can readily make this plain to you.  You choose to think otherwise because you are foolish and allow certainty to be your only guide.  It's said that a man who is his own attorney has a fool for a client.  You invest far too heavily in your own opinion and almost completely dismiss the opinions of others.  You were not built this way.  You are a social animal whose survival depends upon his relying upon others for support and guidance, a fact which you yourself acknowledge, though you prefer to believe that only true guidance can come from God.  But you fail to take advantage of guidance from others on matters that don't depend upon God, such as whether or not I am likely confused or not.  You are a defective unit who has turned against his own and made an island of himself.  I repeat that you were not built this way, or, at worst, it is not the way you were supposed to function.  That may or may not be related to your illness.   I'm not implying that it is or saying this out of spite, but only to acknowledge that there are complications here which cannot be ignored.  I neither assign fault to your religion, your self, or your illness.  But whatever the cause, you are far off course and drifting farther.  And your peers can attest to that, too.  You just prefer being an island and going against what otherwise is or should be your nature.  That's probably a part of your nature, too.  The same is true to a greater or lesser extent in all of us.  I think, perhaps, for reasons I'll simply leave open, you depend on yourself and deny others to a greater extent than others.  I suspect you are in that way generally imbalanced, but it might be simply a polarizing effect of your religious beliefs.  Regardless, you are discarding resources that are at your disposal to help lead you to truth because they do not lead you to the truth that you want to believe.  Your heart is leading, and your head has become little more than an impotent slave, mercilessly serving at the whim of your desires.  That won't lead you to truth.  Emotion and the heart is an important component of the search for truth, but only when it is balanced with reason.  I don't think you are balanced that way, and I could point to numerous and plentiful comments that you've made as evidence of that proposition.

I got rather off track, there, probably because what I feel for you is in fact the opposite of spite, though I am somewhat reluctant to acknowledge it.  The point is that if you're relying on yourself to the exclusion of what your peers and other evidence not related to religion can tell you, you're not well balanced and you are worsening your chances of succeeeding rather than enhancing them by doing so.

I'm so confused...

Boru