25,000 year old human foot prints found in Mexico

[The Grand Nudger]

Sailed in what though. That's really the point of contention. Ice free doesn't mean "not bitterly and lethally cold". We're talking about a nice boat here. I'm thinking high bow, relatively deep draft, high on the sides. You'd want to stay dry. One would expect to find evidence of the industry that created it. Even if the industry were only one man. There's another potential point of reference. How similar are the boatbuilding tools of the proposed parent culture(or their neighbors/descendants) and the pre-clovis (or neighboring) cultures? Something like that could be convincing evidence of technological transfer, etc.

Obviously we have Kayaks out on the Pacific side, with covered decks and whatnot, there's evidence for that. What were proposing here though is much earlier.

[Minimalist]

. Simply that one would assume that this culture would continue building boats in the manner that got them across the N. Atlantic.

Sea levels rose some 400 feet when the ice retreated. If they were coastal dwellers whatever they did is under several hundred feet of water for the last 12,000 years. we are not going to find much.

I'm waiting for Rokcet Scientist to join in because he and I have gone several rounds about this over at Archaeologica.org. For most of human history sea travel has been preferred to land travel. In fact, it is not until comparatively recently that land travel has become preferred.

Overland travel is not a walk in the park. Every river crossing is a major undertaking. Even streams and gullies are dangerous. You have to constantly beware of predators and snakes. You are limited in what you can carry because you have to keep your weapons handy.

Coasting along off shore, though, is a lot easier. If the weather turns bad you head in an make camp on the shore. If the weather stays bad, you wait until it is safe to move on. All it takes is a watertight skin craft on a wood frame.

It's not as if the idea is unknown.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/R_CORACLE.HTM

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh yeah, well aware of that. Also aware that boats made of reeds (for example) can make an ocean crossing. Not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility. I'm just trying to go through the ideas put forward and pin down the kind of evidence that would give strong support to the theory. I did dig more on the hypothesis and they do fine bone awls, so, in theory, they could be used to produce skin boats. The reason I was assuming dugouts is that they are the oldest boats we have. Now we're proposing a technologically advanced culture without any evidence for it. Just trying to keep the number of claims that would require revision of our current understanding to a minimum.

There are a number of reasons that we currently believe dugouts to be the oldest boats. Largely that these are the sorts of boats that we have earliest evidence for. Going further, building a skin boat requires at least some understanding of displacement and waterproofing while building a dugout requires only that the builder understand that logs float. We would expect to find a frame for a skin boat somewhere, even going back that far. We have arrow shafts, backpack frames, shoes frames, the tools used to make them. Not suggesting that it's impossible, only mentioning that it would be nice to have some evidence. I do understand that we're talking archaeology by diver for the most part here, but we do find these sites (couple in FL, in underground rivers btw). So asking for evidence of such technology isn't beyond the pale.

Given the results of genetic sequencing and the evidence we do have available to us, a European origin for early settlers of the Americas is going to require more than conjecture and possibility. That's all.

[Anomalocaris]

Oh yeah, well aware of that. Also aware that boats made of reeds (for example) can make an ocean crossing. Not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility. I'm just trying to go through the ideas put forward and pin down the kind of evidence that would give strong support to the theory. I did dig more on the hypothesis and they do fine bone awls, so, in theory, they could be used to produce skin boats. The reason I was assuming dugouts is that they are the oldest boats we have. Now we're proposing a technologically advanced culture without any evidence for it. Just trying to keep the number of claims that would require revision of our current understanding to a minimum.

There are a number of reasons that we currently believe dugouts to be the oldest boats. Largely that these are the sorts of boats that we have earliest evidence for. Going further, building a skin boat requires at least some understanding of displacement and waterproofing while building a dugout requires only that the builder understand that logs float. We would expect to find a frame for a skin boat somewhere, even going back that far. We have arrow shafts, backpack frames, shoes frames, the tools used to make them. Not suggesting that it's impossible, only mentioning that it would be nice to have some evidence. I do understand that we're talking archaeology by diver for the most part here, but we do find these sites (couple in FL, in underground rivers btw). So asking for evidence of such technology isn't beyond the pale.

Given the results of genetic sequencing and the evidence we do have available to us, a European origin for early settlers of the Americas is going to require more than conjecture and possibility. That's all.

I tend to think the first manufactured watercraft would be some configuration of skin bladder and animal sinew because evidence seem to suggest humans have made use of animal parts in manufactuering for far longer than bulk wooden parts.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, like I said, not beyond the realm of possibility. I stick to the evidence we have just to make any given hypothesis simpler, and thus easier to argue for/defend. Floating log/bundle of reeds to dugout/dugout shaped reed boat is pretty compelling. A tightly sealed skin and sinew bag will float, but I don't know that you'd want to try your hand at navigating a body of water in a bag. Skin boats aren't as simple as they seem.

Speaking of, I suppose we could propose a simple raft for the crossing, as Min said, weather gets rough, you shore up on the ice.

[Anomalocaris]

I think one could not possibly cross the Atlantic in a conoe by shoring up on sea ice. The stormy nature of the Atlantic and the cold of sea ice margin means any one who tries probably would die of exposure and swamping. I think some form of at least partially enclosed boat is essential.

I am not saying skin boats are simple. But humans have been sewing cloth for a long time, and also making small wooden and bone implements like bow, arrow, and spear shafts. I suspect proper boats or canoes made of animal skin for shell and wood/bone for frame probably existed for at least as far back as middle paleolithic.

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, I'm with you on the crossing. Not just any old raft would do. Playing the devils advocate I suppose. Still have to deal with what evidence we have though, dugouts before skin boats. Covered decks, such as kayaks, we find much later, and on the other side of the continent, which is problematic. Some of the oldest baskets we have ( a similar type of technology when you think about it) are only 5000 years old (just found some links to fragments that are possibly 6000 years old). We'd be pushing a lot of things way back to make it fit. That's uncomfortable to me.

[technophobe]

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/10...in-mexico/

I'm surprised some wit didn't ask if the footprints were headed north...




On a serious note though... why does it seem so impossible to think that early peoples couldn't make sea-worthy vessels from large trees? Here on the northwest and northern California coasts, there are examples of indigenous tribes using stone tools and fire to hollow out redwood trees to make very large canoes. They were known to ply the large rivers (think Columbia, Chetco and Klamath rivers) and coastal oceans long before any Europeans arrived.

I think many past cultures were much more intelligent than we present-day smart-asses give them credit for...