God, Energy and Matter

[EgoDeath]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.

How have you made this connection? I understand that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so far as we know, but where did you make the connection from this concept to god?

They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.

Once again, where are you making this connection? Where are you getting the information that god shares these qualities with energy?

 Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

Well, actually, the universe may very well have come from nothing. But that's neither here nor there, because this is mostly speculation for now. The point is, for those that say that "god is energy." What is that actually saying?

Are you claiming that god is a conscious being that takes the form of energy? So is energy conscious? Or is this just another way of saying, "the closest thing there is to a god is energy itself."

Which is it?


@Lek

[Lek]

As for evidence, I've given you my evidence over and over again throughout this thread, to which you've replied that it's not real evidence.  I'm not going to waste my time reiterating what I've already stated.  

Concerning your questions as to why God would not want to provide you with the evidence that you're looking for.  I don't know why, but it is my thought that it's because in uniting with God we must surrender our egos.  When we do that we can't demand that God do things our way.  I don't know why God does things the way he does.  Also, since God is unquantifiable, he can't be described physically anyway.  As for his effects - the universe is all around us. 

In another direction, you guys think that even though we have our modern scientific knowledge with us, a few billion people in the world are mistaken or hallucinating and only you can see through the illusion?

[Fake Messiah]

 In another direction, you guys think that even though we have our modern scientific knowledge with us, a few billion people in the world are mistaken or hallucinating and only you can see through the illusion?

George Harrison, the guitarist for the Beatles, was a Bhakti Hindu. He believed in a personal god, and he said that if one chants the mantras with devotion, Lord Krishna would visibly appear and speak to him in an audible voice.
He said:

"If there’s a God, I want to see Him. It’s pointless to believe in something without proof, and Krishna Consciousness and meditation are methods where you can actually obtain GOD perception. You can actually see God, and Hear Him, play with Him. It might sound crazy, but He is actually there, actually with you."

And yet, Lek, I would bet $1 million that you won't be becoming Krishna follower any time soon. You don't find it at least interesting.
And why is that? Are you saying that George Harrison is hallucinating? Lying? He's certainly not telling the truth because you'd be one of the Krishna followers.

And if you don't care about Harrison's "evidence" for Krishna why would we care about yours for Jesus?

[Simon Moon]

As for evidence, I've given you my evidence over and over again throughout this thread, to which you've replied that it's not real evidence.  I'm not going to waste my time reiterating what I've already stated.  

In other words, this god created humans with minds capable of coming up with ideas of what constitutes good evidence, with the result of coming up with every single real, demonstrable advancement known to humanity, i.e., medical science, computers, flight, space exploration, quantum mechanics, lifespans more than double of just 100 years ago, etc, etc.

Yet, he wants us to abandon using our minds, using that same level of evidence, that got us all those real world advancements, in order to believe his own existence (based on a weaker level of evidence).

Sorry, but your god sounds like a bit if a dick. Sounds like he wants to remain hidden from the most rational of his creation.

Concerning your questions as to why God would not want to provide you with the evidence that you're looking for.  I don't know why, but it is my thought that it's because in uniting with God we must surrender our egos.  When we do that we can't demand that God do things our way.  I don't know why God does things the way he does.  Also, since God is unquantifiable, he can't be described physically anyway.  As for his effects - the universe is all around us. 

Either he wants to purposely remain hidden to those with a modicum of critical thinking skills, which I guess there is nothing we can do about that.

Just who do you think has the biggest egos? Those of us who do not claim to know, with absolute certainty. Or you, that believes the creator of the universe has special plans for you?

The universe is ONLY evidence that the universe exists. As for its cause, you need to demonstrate that a god was responsible. Sounds like yet another fallacy on your part, argument from personal incredulity.

In another direction, you guys think that even though we have our modern scientific knowledge with us, a few billion people in the world are mistaken or hallucinating and only you can see through the illusion?

I am not claiming that I can 'see through the illusion'. My claim is that no theist has ever met their burden of proof.

You, and other theists may be right, I just find that currently, I have no warrant to believe your claims.

And let me add, that yes, it does seem that there are better, natural explanations for the reasons why the majority of humanity believes in gods, than that actual gods exist.

[EgoDeath]

As for evidence, I've given you my evidence over and over again throughout this thread, to which you've replied that it's not real evidence.  I'm not going to waste my time reiterating what I've already stated.

No you didn't, you never even replied to me lol.  

Concerning your questions as to why God would not want to provide you with the evidence that you're looking for.  I don't know why, but it is my thought that it's because in uniting with God we must surrender our egos.  When we do that we can't demand that God do things our way.  I don't know why God does things the way he does.  Also, since God is unquantifiable, he can't be described physically anyway.  As for his effects - the universe is all around us. 

In another direction, you guys think that even though we have our modern scientific knowledge with us, a few billion people in the world are mistaken or hallucinating and only you can see through the illusion?

What are you talking about? You still haven't answered any of my questions lol.

[Lek]

How have you made this connection? I understand that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so far as we know, but where did you make the connection from this concept to god?

My connection is that we think of God as being eternal - always existed and always will. I look into science and discover that energy and matter can not be created or destroyed, giving it an eternal quality which it shares with God. Pantheists believe that the universe is God. In this case matter would be God, and energy could be viewed as his creative force and what keeps the universe in existence.

Once again, where are you making this connection? Where are you getting the information that god shares these qualities with energy?

I think I answered this above. It was my own musing. I was coming with an example in which faith and nature were in agreement and soliciting comments.

Are you claiming that god is a conscious being that takes the form of energy? So is energy conscious? Or is this just another way of saying, "the closest thing there is to a god is energy itself."

i'm thinking that, if the pantheist view is correct, then God is energy and he is the effects of energy. Like God, the universe is eternal in it's purest form. Therefore are God and the universe one in the same? I make the possible connection because I'm a theist.

[The Grand Nudger]

Said it pages ago. Cats are like dogs in the same way that your god is like energy or a universe.

[Lek]

In other words, this god created humans with minds capable of coming up with ideas of what constitutes good evidence, with the result of coming up with every single real, demonstrable advancement known to humanity, i.e., medical science, computers, flight, space exploration, quantum mechanics, lifespans more than double of just 100 years ago, etc, etc.

How about the wonderful result of destroying the world we live in?

Yet, he wants us to abandon using our minds, using that same level of evidence, that got us all those real world advancements, in order to believe his own existence (based on a weaker level of evidence).

He doesn't want us to abandon using our minds.  He wants us to expand our perception of reality

Just who do you think has the biggest egos? Those of us who do not claim to know, with absolute certainty. Or you, that believes the creator of the universe has special plans for you?

I think the ones with the smallest egos are the ones who desire to give our lives to God, rather than just doing everything we want.

I am not claiming that I can 'see through the illusion'. My claim is that no theist has ever met their burden of proof.

You, and other theists may be right, I just find that currently, I have no warrant to believe your claims.

And let me add, that yes, it does seem that there are better, natural explanations for the reasons why the majority of humanity believes in gods, than that actual gods exist.

Don't rely on theists to meet your burden of truth.  If you're asking God to provide proof and you're convinced he hasn't, then blame him.

[Abaddon_ire]

How have you made this connection? I understand that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so far as we know, but where did you make the connection from this concept to god?

My connection is that we think of God as being eternal - always existed and always will.

Nope. God is simply yet another myth. A comfort blanket.

 I look into science and discover that energy and matter can not be created or destroyed, giving it an eternal quality which it shares with God.

You have not looked very far, have you?

Pantheists believe that the universe is God.  In this case matter would be God, and energy could be viewed as his creative force and what keeps the universe in existence.

Who cares? Have they evidence? No.

Once again, where are you making this connection? Where are you getting the information that god shares these qualities with energy?

I think I answered this above.  It was my own musing.  I was coming with an example in which faith and nature were in agreement and soliciting comments.

And there is your problem. Your indolent musings are evidence of nothing more than that you have too much time on your hands.

Are you claiming that god is a conscious being that takes the form of energy? So is energy conscious? Or is this just another way of saying, "the closest thing there is to a god is energy itself."

i'm thinking that, if the pantheist view is correct, then God is energy and he is the effects of energy.  Like God, the universe is eternal in it's purest form.  Therefore are God and the universe one in the same?  I make the possible connection because I'm a theist.

You cannot possibly know any of that, thus it is mere navel lint. Think otherwise? Present evidence. For any of it. For me, I am convinced by the argument that this is not about god and never was. It is about you, stroking your ego.

---

In other words, this god created humans with minds capable of coming up with ideas of what constitutes good evidence, with the result of coming up with every single real, demonstrable advancement known to humanity, i.e., medical science, computers, flight, space exploration, quantum mechanics, lifespans more than double of just 100 years ago, etc, etc.

How about the wonderful result of destroying the world we live in?

How about the fact that some of your fellow god-botherers think that's OK because god will fix it? That is the problem with your kind. Always trying to shift responsibility away from yourselves.

Yet, he wants us to abandon using our minds, using that same level of evidence, that got us all those real world advancements, in order to believe his own existence (based on a weaker level of evidence).

He doesn't want us to abandon using our minds.  He wants us to expand our perception of reality

How is this supposed to happen? Faith?

Just who do you think has the biggest egos? Those of us who do not claim to know, with absolute certainty. Or you, that believes the creator of the universe has special plans for you?

I think the ones with the smallest egos are the ones who desire to give our lives to God, rather than just doing everything we want.

Except that is not what is happening here. What you are in fact doing is pretending to give your life to god in order to experience the smug sense of superiority that underlies all of your baloney. It is that gratification that you seek. No more no less.

I am not claiming that I can 'see through the illusion'. My claim is that no theist has ever met their burden of proof.

You, and other theists may be right, I just find that currently, I have no warrant to believe your claims.

And let me add, that yes, it does seem that there are better, natural explanations for the reasons why the majority of humanity believes in gods, than that actual gods exist.

Don't rely on theists to meet your burden of truth.  If you're asking God to provide proof and you're convinced he hasn't, then blame him.

LOLWUT? Blame a non-existant being for the failures of his adherents? Seriously?

No, that failure falls squarely on the gullible adherents. No point attempting blame shifting now.

[Simon Moon]

In other words, this god created humans with minds capable of coming up with ideas of what constitutes good evidence, with the result of coming up with every single real, demonstrable advancement known to humanity, i.e., medical science, computers, flight, space exploration, quantum mechanics, lifespans more than double of just 100 years ago, etc, etc.

How about the wonderful result of destroying the world we live in?

That's a Non sequitur response to the point I was making.

Maybe we should start playing "Fallacy Bingo" with your responses.

He doesn't want us to abandon using our minds.  He wants us to expand our perception of reality

But you are claiming he is advocating a method, for which the reliability cannot be tested.

I think the ones with the smallest egos are the ones who desire to give our lives to God, rather than just doing everything we want.

Who is doing 'everything we want'?

You do understand that the most secular and atheistic countries in the world, tend to have: lower crime rates, lower infant mortality, better health care, lower poverty rates, better overall happiness rates, better education rates, better rates of upward mobility... than theist countries.

The percentage of atheists in the US prison population, is much lower than their representation in the general public.

Not too much evidence of atheists 'doing everything we want'.

Don't rely on theists to meet your burden of truth.  If you're asking God to provide proof and you're convinced he hasn't, then blame him.

But all I have to go on, is the claims made by theists. I have no evidence of a god doing anything, let alone providing evidence of his existence.

But if he does exist, then he is to blame, for purposely hiding from the best methods humanity has developed for telling truth from fantasy.