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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 18, 2019 at 11:08 am
Which is why I said most
And accounts of versus writings about. Whatever semantics you want to use, you got the gist of it. I think you just like to argue, though, so idc
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 18, 2019 at 11:27 am
Eusebius would be the earliest historian that fits the suspicions that inform your skepticism, as you communicated them.
314ad.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 18, 2019 at 10:39 pm
How so
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 19, 2019 at 7:44 am
(This post was last modified: September 19, 2019 at 7:47 am by The Grand Nudger.)
He wrote the history of christianity from 0ad to 300ad, christ to constantantine....with a focus on apologetics and retconning their origins. He's the guy who "discovered" the TF. Since christianity didn't actually have a history from that frame (because it wasn't what christians claimed it to be in that frame) he was free to write whatever he wanted, which is what he did.
It was during his life (and in part because of his efforts) that christianity would become something that had a history going forward, as they began to capture the roman aristocracy and with it, the power of the state.
(we're quickly approaching the end of the timeline I know anything about, lol, wish we still had Min to pick up for me - I completely lose interest in roman history from christianization onward)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 19, 2019 at 11:15 am
(This post was last modified: September 19, 2019 at 11:15 am by Jehanne.)
(September 18, 2019 at 8:12 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: The historic sources(such as they are, and as opposed to gospel sources) for that will be an interpolation in josephus, and the fervent mythmaking of tacitus in his anti julio claudian history.
-as a sidebar, if anyone ever wondered how christianity got mixed up with rome, the common thread was antipathy towards the julio claudian dynasty and the events of the antonine plagues, lol. Roman politicians, like modern politicians, found their useful idiots in the christian populace.
Two of the three sources from Josephus, from his 20-volume (around 50% of which, I believe, have been lost) on the history of the Jewish people, mention Jesus; likewise, Tacitus mentions him, also. In addition, scholars have the Gospel of Mark, L (unique to Luke), M (Matthew), the Gospel of Thomas, and Q, a now-lost document that was common to Matthew & Luke.
All of these sources are independent, and there is no good reason to believe that they are referencing a mythical person.
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 19, 2019 at 11:27 am
(This post was last modified: September 19, 2019 at 11:29 am by The Grand Nudger.)
The gospels are not independent (nor are they sources, they are the claim), the TF is an interpolation. Tacitus mentions christians and what they believed.
There is every reason to believe that the chirst of the new testament is a mythical person....even if there were some guy named joe. Joe aint christ.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 19, 2019 at 11:50 am
(September 19, 2019 at 11:27 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: The gospels are not independent (nor are they sources, they are the claim), the TF is an interpolation. Tacitus mentions christians and what they believed.
There is every reason to believe that the chirst of the new testament is a mythical person....even if there were some guy named joe. Joe aint christ.
I neglected to mention Paul, in what are universally recognized by scholars in his 7 authentic New Testament epistles, also mentions Jesus.
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 19, 2019 at 11:57 am
Can you summarize what the term "authentic paul" means, to the people who use it? Does it mean that there was a paul, for starters?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 19, 2019 at 6:00 pm
(This post was last modified: September 19, 2019 at 6:01 pm by mordant.)
(September 19, 2019 at 11:50 am)Jehanne Wrote: (September 19, 2019 at 11:27 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: The gospels are not independent (nor are they sources, they are the claim), the TF is an interpolation. Tacitus mentions christians and what they believed.
There is every reason to believe that the chirst of the new testament is a mythical person....even if there were some guy named joe. Joe aint christ.
I neglected to mention Paul, in what are universally recognized by scholars in his 7 authentic New Testament epistles, also mentions Jesus.
Paul has a very different conception from the gospels, of a celestial Jesus, revealed and informed not via an earthly ministry or the testimony of what should have been then-living eyewitnesses, but a heavenly vision or dream -- claimed direct revelation to him personally.
There was no established orthodoxy for Christianity in the 1st century. The gospels, written more than a generation after Paul's letters even if we accept the most common dating, were an attempt to codify such an orthodoxy. But it would take about 300 more years for it to triumph, in particular over gnosticism. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if Paul was an early gnostic or even the originator of the concept.
Finally ... if the gospels are the claim and not the evidence, so is the rest of the NT including Paul's writings. The Acts of the Apostles references Jesus too. So what? All that stuff is fabulist fan fiction. What is needed is independent, preferably hostile, secular sources referencing Jesus. What we have is a forged "pious fraud" in Josephus and stuff like Tacitus that refers to the cult, not its leader.
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RE: The Jesus story has details that is most definitely made up i just realized!!!
September 20, 2019 at 10:03 pm
(September 19, 2019 at 6:00 pm)mordant Wrote: (September 19, 2019 at 11:50 am)Jehanne Wrote: I neglected to mention Paul, in what are universally recognized by scholars in his 7 authentic New Testament epistles, also mentions Jesus.
Paul has a very different conception from the gospels, of a celestial Jesus, revealed and informed not via an earthly ministry or the testimony of what should have been then-living eyewitnesses, but a heavenly vision or dream -- claimed direct revelation to him personally.
There was no established orthodoxy for Christianity in the 1st century. The gospels, written more than a generation after Paul's letters even if we accept the most common dating, were an attempt to codify such an orthodoxy. But it would take about 300 more years for it to triumph, in particular over gnosticism. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if Paul was an early gnostic or even the originator of the concept.
Finally ... if the gospels are the claim and not the evidence, so is the rest of the NT including Paul's writings. The Acts of the Apostles references Jesus too. So what? All that stuff is fabulist fan fiction. What is needed is independent, preferably hostile, secular sources referencing Jesus. What we have is a forged "pious fraud" in Josephus and stuff like Tacitus that refers to the cult, not its leader.
Paul, in the 7 epistles that are undisputed as having been written by him, refers to some actions of the historical Jesus -- namely, his last meal, betrayal and crucifixion. But, yes, for Paul, Jesus' "resurrection" was mostly, if not wholly, spiritual. In fact, Paul may have believed that Jesus' corpse was buried and he was resurrected in some sort of phantasmal body.
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