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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 4:36 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2020 at 4:41 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
I haven’t seen any hard figures on the energy costs of recycled energy, but it strikes me as a good idea all the same. Two options:
1. There are x particles of carbon in the atmosphere. We can continue burning fossil fuels at the current rate of increase, and make x an ever-larger number.
2. We can remove some of those particles, turn them into fuel, and burn that. This would seem to have the result of either stabilizing the value of x or (at the very least) slowing the rate of increase.
Doesn’t seem to be the worst idea. It’s kind of like sourdough starter. If you keep feeding it without discarding any, you’re going to end up with an awful mess. If you do the discarding (or at least bake a lot), things are much more manageable.
Boru
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 4:44 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2020 at 4:45 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Depends on the method. Gasification and pyrolysis of waste plastics, for example - different numbers both in theory and in practice. Atmospheric scrubbing processes environmental carbon, adding hydrogen, to produce hydrocarbon fuels. There's more than one way to do that, the numbers are different between them.
We didn't "put" the energy into any of these products, they stored energy before we were a twinkle in uncle oggs eye. We produce these substances as waste, and in doing so have left a portion of usable energy on the table. Like you, I can't imagine why capturing that unexpended fuel would be a bad idea.
I guess it's sticker shock, but how can anyone be surprised, at this point, that the cost to fix the damage that we've done is monumentally high?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:01 pm
(April 3, 2020 at 4:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What law of thermodynamics makes energy production impossible, and how do we explain the sheer existence of energy production if that's the case?
We don't produce energy we convert energy from one form to another and if you try to convert it back again there will be a net loss. That's what laws of thermodynamics states.
Miserable Bastard.
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:03 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2020 at 5:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Is that what makes energy production impossible, in your estimation?
I mean, IDK what to say...there's all kinds of energy still left on the table, even after loss, even with recycled fuels. However...since not all of that energy is useful energy, and since the energy that recycled fuels produce is useful energy, it isn't much of a concern for us.
It would be nice to capture even more, don't get me wrong..but...?
Lets be very clear here...you do understand that there is no law of thermodynamics which states that we, personally, have to put more energy into something...or even the same amount of energy into something, in order to extract energy. You do get that, right? The whole reason that we can produce recycled fuel of this sort is that something else put alot of energy into something..and we're not using all of it, even when we consume the product. Hell, we're not putting the same amount of energy into the primary fuel...
...what the actual fuck?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:30 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2020 at 5:34 pm by onlinebiker.)
(April 3, 2020 at 3:47 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There are 1700 kWh in a barrel of oil. Do you think that it takes more than 1700kWh to extract it?
Lol... Are you really going to try to equate pumping crude, refining and transporting it with building a fuel from base elements?
The reason that all those BTUs are available in crude is that plant life converted base elements using photosynthisis - then percolated for a couple hundred million years.
You want to duplicate that process without the help of several hundred thousand years of accumulated energy storage courtesy of the plants.
Sorry bucky - the only free lunch is the one those long dead plants left us.
(April 3, 2020 at 5:01 pm)Succubus#2 Wrote: (April 3, 2020 at 4:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What law of thermodynamics makes energy production impossible, and how do we explain the sheer existence of energy production if that's the case?
We don't produce energy we convert energy from one form to another and if you try to convert it back again there will be a net loss. That's what laws of thermodynamics states.
Sorry bro... You might as well try to explain Parliamentary Procedure to a labradoodle.....
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:38 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2020 at 5:40 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 3, 2020 at 5:30 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Lol... Are you really going to try to equate pumping crude, refining and transporting it with building a fuel from base elements?
Is that a yes or a no? Do you think that it takes more than 1700 kWh to produce a barrel of oil?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:40 pm
(April 3, 2020 at 4:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I haven’t seen any hard figures on the energy costs of recycled energy, but it strikes me as a good idea all the same. Two options:
1. There are x particles of carbon in the atmosphere. We can continue burning fossil fuels at the current rate of increase, and make x an ever-larger number.
2. We can remove some of those particles, turn them into fuel, and burn that. This would seem to have the result of either stabilizing the value of x or (at the very least) slowing the rate of increase.
Doesn’t seem to be the worst idea. It’s kind of like sourdough starter. If you keep feeding it without discarding any, you’re going to end up with an awful mess. If you do the discarding (or at least bake a lot), things are much more manageable.
Boru
Really?
You don't see were that falls flat on it's ass?
....
Not a whole lot of engineering types here, huh?
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:41 pm
(This post was last modified: April 3, 2020 at 5:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What do you mean by falling flat on it's ass? It's an effort to capture a usable waste product that currently exists as atmospheric pollution. It works, it can be done, and has been done......?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:44 pm
(April 3, 2020 at 5:40 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: (April 3, 2020 at 4:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I haven’t seen any hard figures on the energy costs of recycled energy, but it strikes me as a good idea all the same. Two options:
1. There are x particles of carbon in the atmosphere. We can continue burning fossil fuels at the current rate of increase, and make x an ever-larger number.
2. We can remove some of those particles, turn them into fuel, and burn that. This would seem to have the result of either stabilizing the value of x or (at the very least) slowing the rate of increase.
Doesn’t seem to be the worst idea. It’s kind of like sourdough starter. If you keep feeding it without discarding any, you’re going to end up with an awful mess. If you do the discarding (or at least bake a lot), things are much more manageable.
Boru
Really?
You don't see were that falls flat on it's ass?
....
Not a whole lot of engineering types here, huh?
Could you explain it, please? I mean, the content-free sneering is adorable, but it doesn’t really move the discussion along.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: Last Non-winter
April 3, 2020 at 5:44 pm
(April 3, 2020 at 5:38 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (April 3, 2020 at 5:30 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Lol... Are you really going to try to equate pumping crude, refining and transporting it with building a fuel from base elements?
Is that a yes or a no? Do you think that it takes more than 1700 kWh to produce a barrel of oil?
That's just it genius...
You did NOT produce it.
You simply moved it around a bit and filtered out the parts you like.
The plants - 300 million years ago MADE it.
See the difference?
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