Petition to abolish the Electoral College

[The Grand Nudger]

Unless it runs afoul of the will of the mob, ofc - then you (or I) shouldn't do whatever the newly empowered mob tells us not to do.

I could clarify here and say that I don't think that the ec was even particularly well intentioned. It was intended to privilege the usual suspects, but being intended for that purpose it was made effective, and effective tools don't lose that ability depending on whose hand holds them.

Consider for a moment that, despite whatever statistics derived from loaded cold calls on single political issues - that the majority disagrees with you. Imagine for a moment that you are right. You already think as much, you don't need to imagine it (and I probably agree with you in most if not all respects). We want to believe that the majority agrees with us because, if they didn't, that would be bad. That's sloppy thinking, and when that sloppy thinking threatens the bulwark standing between ourselves and the mob, who may not actually be the people we fervently wish for them to be, it's a problem. The american mob are white supremacist allies. We believe in the rhetoric, we just don't like the labels. Full stop. Handing them greater power won't end well.

[Angrboda]

As someone who values what it can do, actually.  If the electoral college allows a demographic minority to pursue justice and proper legislation (as they see it, obvs), and we have a problem with a demographic majority not achieving that same justice or legislation - then retreating to social media to make the case is fucking idiotic.  

What we need is, I don't know, some mechanism for balancing what the minorities believe serves justice and proper legislation with the interests of other actors. I don't know what to call it. Let's go with "voting."

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Unless it runs afoul of the will of the mob, ofc - then you (or I) shouldn't do whatever the newly empowered mob tells us not to do.

Mob psychology isn't relevant. Quit quoting propaganda and apply some reason. Neither the EC nor the popular vote are effective brakes on a misinformed or corrupt electorate.

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Consider for a moment that, despite whatever statistics derived from loaded cold calls on single political issues - that the majority disagrees with you.  Imagine for a moment that you are right.  You already think as much, you don't need to imagine it (and I probably agree with you in most if not all respects).   We want to believe that the majority agrees with us because, if they didn't, that would be bad.  That's sloppy thinking, and when that sloppy thinking threatens the bulwark standing between ourselves and the mob, who may not actually be the people we fervently wish for them to be, it's a problem.  The american mob are white supremacist allies.  Full stop.

If you can't persuade others that you are right, nobody owes you a free pass to dictate your views to others. We rule by speech and voting and persuasion, not by structural gimmicks.

[The Grand Nudger]

As someone who values what it can do, actually.  If the electoral college allows a demographic minority to pursue justice and proper legislation (as they see it, obvs), and we have a problem with a demographic majority not achieving that same justice or legislation - then retreating to social media to make the case is fucking idiotic.  

What we need is, I don't know, some mechanism for balancing what the minorities believe serves justice and proper legislation with the interests of other actors.  I don't know what to call it.  Let's go with "voting."

Voting doesn't protect or privilege a minority concern.  It solidifies majority grip.  Moreso when there's no filter between the mob and the legislative body.  That's the entire premise of a republic - that The People don't always vote the right way.  Do we disagree with that, now? Can we think of no instance in which The People were all in on some horrid wrong thing? The People were all in on GW, and I'm pretty sure he didn't invent the GOPs bad ideas.

Mob psychology isn't relevant.  Quit quoting propaganda and apply some reason.  Neither the EC nor the popular vote are effective brakes on a misinformed or corrupt electorate.

Mob psychology is very much relevant to voting.

If you can't persuade others that you are right, nobody owes you a free pass to dictate your views to others.  We rule by speech and voting and persuasion, not by structural gimmicks.

-and being able to persuade others that you are right in no way certifies that your proposal is, well..right.  That's the premise of the ec, and of a republic.

Unless we are no longer worried about the tyranny of the mob - the inherent weakness of democracy - there should always be a means by which a voting minority can override the worst impulses of the majority. I know, I know, people might think "what about the constitution!" - well, who writes that, again?

[Silver]

Except that we're not supposed to be a Republican government. We're supposed to be a Democracy.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, we're not. We're a representative republic with democratic principles.

Lay that aside, because we can change that (presumably) and declare ourselves to be a democracy rather than a republic.....but...do we want to do that?

Let's take off our partisan blinders and consider the power wielded by rural electors in a past context. Rural people were largely immigrants. They were the minority of the day (even though they're all white now). They were maligned in the press even as their lives and labor were required to keep coastal america alive. Literally, alive. The coast, in this past, was a racist piece of shit robber baron system - and the majority.

In this case, can we see the utility of the ec, or of a republic, for that matter?

[Silver]

Yes, let's become a true democracy.

[The Grand Nudger]

So that the white supremacist ally majority can do what? Better, or worse things?

[Angrboda]

A tyrrany of a minority is even worse than a tyrrany of the majority. Voting isn't meant to protect the interests of the minority. It's to prevent minorities from illegitimately exercising power. Has the last four years taught you nothing? The electoral college is not an effective brake even if that were the goal. Preserving a broken mechanism because you fear what will happen if it stops working is stupid. It hasn't been working and never will. You're arguing to preserve nonexistent benefits. The redress for minority opnion lies elsewhere, and it does exist. The only thing the EC does successfully is disenfranchise voters and discourage turnout in homogenous states.

[The Grand Nudger]

That may as well be, but since we're not proposing that the minority inflict tyranny, but rather, that they use what tools we've created to prevent it even when the majority demands it...what's the problem?

The mechanism isn't broken, it's doing exactly what it's meant to do. The People are broken - and because of this, they're going to use anything to get what they want. I want to point out, again, that republics and the ec are the final barrier to every moment in history...and there have been many, in which The People decide to go all in on horrid shit.

[Silver]

In what way does the one Democratic party of Democracy result in your backwards idea of Hitler 2.0?