A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)

[HappySkeptic]

As I wrote earlier...anything that has not been established as impossible...is possible.

Wrong, again.

You cant prove a negative, thus you cant show anything to be impossible, thus everything is possible? Like the universe being created by (a god or) pink, universe farting pixies?

Nope, you have to demonstrate the actual possibility of something. "Possibility" is an active claim. If you want to make the claim that its possible that the universe was created by pink, universe farting pixies, you have to show that (pink) pixies do (possibly) exist, before you can claim its possible they can fart universes into existence.

The usual philosophical argument to combat this, is that the existence of a "creator" or "prime mover" or "first cause" is in a different category that pink pixies.

There is some validity to this.  We imagine that all things have causes, and we are hit with either a first cause, or no first cause (infinite regress of causes, or perhaps the universe or multiverse is uncaused).

So, the question of there being a first cause, or no first cause is a binary question to be answered.  That makes the question reasonable.

However, once one starts to give even a single arbitrary property to this "first cause" (should it exist), then we DO get into pink pixie territory.  If one claims that the first cause was an intelligence, or it loves us, or is omniscient, or is spirit ... then it becomes just another in the set of "all possible imagined things", which has vanishingly small probability of matching something real.

[Deesse23]

Wrong, again.

You cant prove a negative, thus you cant show anything to be impossible, thus everything is possible? Like the universe being created by (a god or) pink, universe farting pixies?

Nope, you have to demonstrate the actual possibility of something. "Possibility" is an active claim. If you want to make the claim that its possible that the universe was created by pink, universe farting pixies, you have to show that (pink) pixies do (possibly) exist, before you can claim its possible they can fart universes into existence.

The usual philosophical argument to combat this, is that the existence of a "creator" or "prime mover" or "first cause" is in a different category that pink pixies.

...which is a bald faced assertion

[Frank Apisa]

I am not trolling, LFC. You are. You even bragged that you are.

So...

The only reason you’re still here is because of a birthday favor.

Okay...but I am still not trolling.

If I were to troll I would pick somewhere else. The atheists here, although there are a couple who are slightly sharp, do not compare with some places I've been. This is fun, but it is a no-contest. There are no A List atheists here.

I'm glad the birthday favor got me a few more days. I've enjoyed myself...and I've got what I came for...some answers. The replies will help me where it counts.

---

The only reason you’re still here is because of a birthday favor.

Just but a bow on it.  

Whatever.

I am a glass half-full kind of person.

If it got me a bit more time...so much the better.

---

As I wrote earlier...anything that has not been established as impossible...is possible.

So...unless that entity has been established as impossible...it is possible.

The set of entities which can be imagined is limitless.  The set of entities which exist are finite.  The chance, therefore, of any particular imagined entity (or group of entities) to match an existent entity is vanishingly small without some sort of evidence for that entity.

All of our knowledge (even science) is based on probability logic, not absolute proof.  One can always add one more bad bandaid to a failed theory to keep it working, where a reasonable person would just throw it away in favor of a superior one.

If you truly hold to this logic about gods, then you must accept the possibility of any particular imagined entity as actually existing, when I have already established that the odds of that are close to zero.  I presume you are agnostic about leprechauns, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, angels, and fairies as well.

Anyone who alleges that he/she KNOWS there are no gods...is full of shit.

I am agnostic about anything that has not been established as impossible. Leprechauns, angels, and fairies seem a very remote possibility here on Earth...but I cannot logically say they do not exist. Neither can you, but that won't stop you.

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As I wrote earlier...anything that has not been established as impossible...is possible.

Wrong, again.

You cant prove a negative, thus you cant show anything to be impossible, thus everything is possible? Like the universe being created by (a god or) pink, universe farting pixies?

Oh, bullshit. You CAN prove a negative. But some negatives have such a universal scope...they cannot be proven.

Here is a negative you can prove:  Assert that there are no live, visible horses in your closest desk or bureau drawer...then prove that negative by opening the drawer.

Nope, you have to demonstrate the actual possibility of something. "Possibility" is an active claim. If you want to make the claim that its possible that the universe was created by pink, universe farting pixies, you have to show that (pink) pixies do (possibly) exist, before you can claim its possible they can fart universes into existence.

You people are so dense, I am surprised you have survived this long.
Anything that has not been established as impossible...is by definition, possible.
Stop trying to be logical...you have no aptitude for it.[/quote]

[Deesse23]

Oh, bullshit. You CAN prove a negative.

Fine, dont argue with me, argue with this guy:

Right now I am simply saying that there is absolutely no way anyone can KNOW that there are no gods.

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Here is a negative you can prove:  Assert that there are no live, visible horses in your closest desk or bureau drawer...then prove that negative by opening the drawer.

I opened the drawer, no horses. They jumped out before i opened the drawer. Impossible you say? Well, according to you, everything is possible....

[Frank Apisa]

Oh, bullshit. You CAN prove a negative.

Fine, dont argue with me, argue with this guy:

Right now I am simply saying that there is absolutely no way anyone can KNOW that there are no gods.

Is there anyone here who even has a hint of what logic is all about?

There is no way for anyone to KNOW that there are no gods. It is a negative statement of much too wide a scope. Because it is a negative statement that cannot be proven...DES NOT MEAN ALL OTHER NEGATIVE STATEMENT ALSO CANNOT BE PROVEN.

Jesus H. Christ, you are really dense.

[vulcanlogician]

Okay...but I am still not trolling.

If I were to troll I would pick somewhere else. The atheists here, although there are a couple who are slightly sharp, do not compare with some places I've been. This is fun, but it is a no-contest. There are no A List atheists here.

See. This shit right here is what makes people think you are trolling.

"This is fun," you say.

Fun? A conversation that hasn't moved an inch since it started? Like, only a troll would find that fun.

People who enter into the conversation in good faith want to see a genuine exchange of ideas. To me, THAT'S fun. I love (genuine) debate/discussion. Just the fact that you think this is fun is evidence that you're a troll.

"A List atheists"?

What? Do they get to hang out in the VIP room? Does the bouncer let them cut in line so they get in the club early?

Come the fuck on, man. You are either making the (erroneous) assumption that people here are gunning for high-tier status (rather than just wanting to hang out and talk about religion)--- OR, you have some kind of self esteem issues that make you organize everybody according to some better than/less than scheme.

Or you're a troll.

I'm not convinced of any of these possibilities just yet, but, whatever, something ain't right here.

[Deesse23]

Fine, dont argue with me, argue with this guy:

Is there anyone here who even has a hint of what logic is all about?

There is no way for anyone to KNOW that there are no gods. It is a negative statement of much too wide a scope. Because it is a negative statement that cannot be proven...DES NOT MEAN ALL OTHER NEGATIVE STATEMENT ALSO CANNOT BE PROVEN.

Jesus H. Christ, you are really dense.

Doubling down on your ignorance with CAPS LOCK.....not very clever, but otoh, you already provided more than ample evidence.
I just wanted to point that out.

*exits stage*

[Frank Apisa]

Oh, bullshit. You CAN prove a negative.

Fine, dont argue with me, argue with this guy:

Right now I am simply saying that there is absolutely no way anyone can KNOW that there are no gods.

---

Here is a negative you can prove:  Assert that there are no live, visible horses in your closest desk or bureau drawer...then prove that negative by opening the drawer.

I opened the drawer, no horses. They jumped out before i opened the drawer. Impossible you say? Well, according to you, everything is possible....

Oh, you would not have noticed them jumping out> 
What a moron you are.
Okay, okay...I am getting to you on too large a scale...and you are starting to crumle. 
Don't want to do that.
If you want to insist you cannot prove a negative...okay with me. My guess is that every logician in the world would say you are wrong...but...stick with that.
It doesn't change the equation. It still is impossible for anyone to KNOW that there are no gods.
On second thought...don't stick with that ignorant insistence. Learn something from what is going on here. Try to understand that negative assertions CAN be proved false...but not if they encompass a huge scope.
One cannot logically say, "There are no sentient creatures living on any planet circling the nearest 25 stars to Sol." The scope is too big for a proof.
The guess may be correct. There may be no gods...there may be no sentient creatures on any of those planets. But it is just a guess. There is no way (at the present time) to prove it).

[The Grand Nudger]

All the way to equating gods and aliens- I guess it’s time for that part of the routine. Gods don’t have anything to do with aliens. They’re stories we tell for effect here on earth.

I don’t know whether or not alien life exists. I like to think it does, though, somewhere. Be a shame if we were all alone. Doesn’t even have to be intelligent. I like plants, I’d settle for some dumb alien flora.

[HappySkeptic]

Anyone who alleges that he/she KNOWS there are no gods...is full of shit.

I am agnostic about anything that has not been established as impossible. Leprechauns, angels, and fairies seem a very remote possibility here on Earth...but I cannot logically say they do not exist. Neither can you, but that won't stop you.

And yet you never actually deal with the statements I made.

If your problem is with "positive atheism" or "gnostic atheism", then you should deal with the arguments made by those people (there are a few on these boards, but not many).  Usually the problem is with the definition of gods.  Gnostic atheists do have some good arguments.  They are not sufficient to cover all possible gods, but they may be sufficient to cover what most people call God.  You should look them up.

I am an agnostic atheist, but you have not acknowledged that this label makes sense.  You maintain that we must either call ourselves agnostics, or else are full of shit.