Why Atheism/Secular Humanism... Part II

[reverendjeremiah]

In Judaism there is no hell with fire or brimstone - so all this nonsense of "If I don't believe in your God will I rot" has no merit. We are a religion that not only doesn't proseyltize we actually will try to turn you away if you try to convert.

There is no Hell anyways, other than in fictional entertainment.

Next, we do have a heaven but its not the Christian or Muslim heaven of a garden of Eden with infinite physical pleasures - these things are considered very lowly on the Jewish totem pole. Our heaven is much more vague, according to tradition, once we die, our souls leave our body and become one with God.

The garden of eden was NOT about infinite pleasure. It was about being a mindless slave to god. Hence the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Once they ate of the apple, then, and ONLY then, did they become aware of themselves and their bodies that they were naked.
Then again, the old testament was so poorly written I wouldnt use it as an example of anything other than how not to write a story.
Example: Yahweh creates man and woman (lilith) out of the same patch of dirt. Then they get into a fight over who gets on top during sex. Adam goes and complains to Yahweh, and Yahweh commands Lillith (against her free will) to be subservient. She refuses, and turns into a demon named Asherot (sp). Of course, it is not revealed wether she spontaneously changed or if Yahweh cursed her. Then Adam is put to sleep and a rib removed to create a truly subservant woman. This woman, being created subservant, is EASILY tempted by the Serpent that Yahweh allowed in the garden. They eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and suddenly realize they are naked?

Really? Adam didnt realize he was naked when he was fighting over doggy or cowgirl position?

As I said before..it is a horribly written book.

This is my meat and potatoes: Is religion needed in order for the masses to sustain themselves especially when facing a future where mechanization and 'human evolution' threaten to destroy humanity as we know it?

Of course mankind can get along with religion. In fact, they tend to get along better without it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmwBPsB0oaE

Can Secular Humanism (again now abbreviated as SH and synonymous with atheism) build a moral framework is which we can resist our carnal, worldy desires?

LOL...what? You are asking if humanism has what it takes to deny the human body? No, lol, only religion goes counter to human desires and reality.

I believe the answer is no.

You came to the right answer for the wrong reasons. You equate humanism with atheism and religion.

Europe to me is a very sad case of what happens when a people lose God. Europe's (and Japan's) biggest problem right now is stablizing and decreasing populations. To you noobs out there this might seem like a 'good' thing (less resource consumption right?) but in reality its devastating economically, not to mention pretty sad. When I toured Europe for 10 days in October I saw very few families, very few children - compared to Israel which has loads of both.

Thats your opinion. I find it much sadder that Israel is to busy killing each other off in the name of religion (muslims vs. Jews) than coming together in the name of humanity and peace. Deciding not to have 15 kids is MUCH LESS sad to me than people killing themselves over mythology. Besides, why have so many children?

Why don't people want to have kids? Pure selfishness, which brings me to my next point.

Not having kids is selfishness? I can think of much better examples of selfishness than that.

Without religion it seems people are less likely to give to charitable causes or care about their neighbor. There's alot of talk in the SH community of these things, but that seems to be the end of the line. Religious people are much more giving with their time and money to both family and strangers because religion teaches self sacrifice.

HUGE citation needed.
Lets do some basic figuring with your conclusion. America is vast majority religious. The poverty level is sky high right now. If what you said was true, then the vast majority of america would have tackled and done away with poverty by now. But no, it is getting worse. America is also opposed to immigrants (strangers).

Disclaimer: In order to play along you need to take my speculation as fact or close to it.

So in order for me to discuss this with you, I have to assume that everything you say is fact? If so, then what the hell kind of discussion do you want? You want us to stroke your ego and tell you lies that you want to hear?

As stated in the last thread, within in the next 2-3 decades we will begin fusing with machines slowly but surely until our form will no longer be considered human (at least not as we know it). Compounding this will be the onset of full immersion virtual reality where users will be able to enter virtual worlds in which one can be a hero, villian, actor, porn star or anything else that suits their fancy. This world will in every way be superior to ours.

why did you leave out religious experiences and such in your list? Surely there will be people "experiencing the life of Jesus", or "Playing god", or "Life as Mosses", etc... and these religious types will be just as addicted. And if history is used as a template, these people will push these "religious VR's" are hard as they could while trying to ban every other VR at the same time. Just like they push the bible, yet want damn near every other book banned and publicly burned.

Well why not just live there - you might say. Much for the same reason why you guys refuse to be religious - "its not real".

And surely many christians will decide that living a VR version of heaven will be much better than real life. Besides, they keep reminding us atheists that they are "not of this world" anyways.

However, because SH lacks religion, you guys have cave men priorities in a more technical society with a higher moral code (that is totally based on religion but this is a topic for another day). Happiness to the SH is the end all be all. Without religion I believe you will all become cyborgs, put your brains in tubes so you can live in a virtual world uninterrupted, etc etc.

Insults and strawmen, yet you insist that to play along with you we have to admit you are speaking fact. i thought you religious folk didnt believe in the existence of cavemen? I thought we were created as is by Yahweh? You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

You might at this point respond that it doesn't matter, "who cares if we're happy". And that's exactly what I'm getting at.

Nope, not even close. My response is "what point is this person trying to make other than insult me?"

Because you've forsaken religion, the great force of human morality, you will eventually forsake your humanity itself effectively letting the world be ruled by machines.

I thought the great force of human morality was...you know...actually being kind to people. Live and let live?

[thesummerqueen]

The problem with religious people is this: they assume people will act in immoral ways if not subjected to their particular set of laws because they themselves believe they would act in exactly that manner.

Also that they have ridiculous notions of what constitutes as moral, but we've discussed that elsewhere.

I would posit that this person is afraid that if this future they envisage came about, were it not for the threat of the 'raging alcoholic' Hebrew god, they would participate wholeheartedly.

[Rayaan]

The problem with religious people is this: they assume people will act in immoral ways if not subjected to their particular set of laws because they themselves believe they would act in exactly that manner.

Nah, I don't assume that.

I know that an atheist can have good morals in many greater degrees than a believer of religion and that the vice versa is also true.

[thesummerqueen]

You're also not overly obsessed with your religiosity, Rayaan.

[Rayaan]

That's true. But, I also know a lot of Muslims who are overly obsessed with their religion and they are still good people.

[thesummerqueen]

I'm not saying they're not - please don't get that impression. I'm saying that those who suggest atheists, or even those of different religions, are immoral only because they don't follow the same rule book, are afraid they wouldn't be able to control their own impulses if put under different circumstances without the threat of one god or another. I'd love for people to understand that it is quite within you to be a good, kind, generous and helpful person without all the trappings of religion.

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Or with different religious trappings. I know a lot of people whose religions are important to them, and I do adore them - Christian or otherwise - though I do wish they'd stress a little less and realize that their goodness comes from the person they are and their natural empathy and compassion, not because Jesus or Allah or Jehovah put it in their head to be so.

[Ace Otana]

The problem with religious people is this: they assume people will act in immoral ways if not subjected to their particular set of laws because they themselves believe they would act in exactly that manner.

The whole - Since you don't hold the same religious beliefs nor follow religious rules, you're wrong and immoral by default....argument. Entirely fallacious.
They fail to recognise or accept that by not possessing such beliefs or following such rules that a person can still be right and very moral. That's where the hatred resides as well as delusion. That's one of his biggest problems.
The argument isn't too distant from the argument of god, that since we don't know where all this came from (the universe) god must of done it (god some how being the default answer). Fallacious arguments. That's why I can't see how I could ever argue successfully as a theist in defence of such beliefs. There's too many holes.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's true. But, I also know a lot of Muslims who are overly obsessed with their religion and they are still good people.

Because they're still people, regardless of their religion. That has to be said. The old canard about what it takes to make a good man do evil. The crusaders didn't shout "I will it" and jihadis don't scream "I hu akbar".

[Norfolk And Chance]

Instead of anti-semitism and hatred, how about making a logical argument?

He just did.

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You're also not overly obsessed with your religiosity, Rayaan.

Just as well, because islam is as laughable as christianity.

[DeistPaladin]

My wife shared this with me tonight and I said it reminded me of TheReal's whining about disrespect for his religion: