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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 3:49 am
(This post was last modified: July 11, 2023 at 3:51 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I've never failed to notice an objective difference in trans people with respect to their assigned gender peers. I think it would be either impossible or absurd to explain that difference without accepting that they behave differently because they feel differently. It's as repeatable and observable as anything in our personal natures. Then, ofc, there could be an issue of an observable difference in brain structures.
At the end of the day, "feeling like a woman" won't actually make a person a woman..even if they're a cis gendered woman.... from society's point of view - so the question is malformed. Objective reports of our subjective experience are possible, I think....but they don't speak to the other truth of gender, the relative one which society decides.
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 4:41 am
(July 10, 2023 at 9:14 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: So, let's discuss the Trans Issue. How many genders or sexes are there? Are gender and sex the same? Should child genital mutilation, or so-called sex change surgeries, even for young children, be allowed or promoted as a good thing, when it can be irreparably harmful for life, and regretted later on? Etc. For those who make the decision as 18+ year adults, that's one thing. But children?
Recently, we've had people from all across the Political Spectrum, i.e. People on Both Left and Right, and People from a variety of religious convictions and non-convictions, including Atheists like Dawkins, devout Hindus like British-Indian PM Rishi Sunak, and of course famous Harry Potter Author, J.K. or Joanne Kathleen Rowling, not at all coming to this issue from a Biblical Perspective, acknowledge there are serious challenges/issues that need to be discussed here. And of course, J K Rowling in particular has been the object of almost incredible hate simply for saying, in essence, she believes a man who attempts to change his sex is not completely and fully a Biological Woman. Richard Dawkins, the well known Militant Atheist, has said there are only 2 sexes or genders, and these are identical. Rishi Sunak said Biology is still the best determinant of who is a woman or a man. Many have called this the defining the women's rights issue of our time, whether men, even some who just identify as women without a full-blown surgery, should then be allowed into women's bathrooms/locker rooms, and compete in women's sports, like athletics, swimming etc.
And of course, Piers Morgan, talk show host, when someone on his show said, "we can identify as whatever we want", so that in this perspective, there could be a 100 Genders, Morgan replied: "Ok, then, I identify as a Black Lesbian". Lol.
From the Christian Perspective, the answer is very obvious: "1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in His own likeness. 2Male and female He created them, and He blessed them." (Gen 5:1-2). This is confirmed by basic biology.
Thoughts?
Let's Debate.
God Bless.
(Bold mine)
A little context is needed here. This is what Dawkins actually said:
Quote:“Is trans woman a woman? Purely semantic. If you define by chromosomes, no. If by self-identification, yes. I call her “she” out of courtesy.”
In further comments, he clarified doesn't dispute the difference between sex and gender, and that he was, in fact, pointing out that sex is biological while gender is social. He's still not exactly right, but he certainly never said that sex and gender are identical.
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 6:33 am
(July 10, 2023 at 9:14 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: From the Christian Perspective, the answer is very obvious: "1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in His own likeness. 2Male and female He created them, and He blessed them." (Gen 5:1-2). This is confirmed by basic biology. From YOUR perspective maybe. There are other christians, not so ignorant as you.
There is a difference between what you like to be true and what is true. Unfortunately, when both dont match, you think what is true need to be adapted.
Talking about what should be true vs what is true: Bible also said that Eve was made of Adams rib. From a biblical standpoint they SHOULD have the same chromosomes, and "woman" should not be a thing at all, just like trans.
Do you know what biology has to say about this? I do. It involves:
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 6:38 am
(July 10, 2023 at 9:14 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: [b]Richard Dawkins, the well known Militant Atheist If Dawkins is militant, what are you? ...next to being dishonest and wilfully ignorant?
Quote:The English word militant is both an adjective and a noun, and it is generally used to mean vigorously active, combative and/or aggressive, especially in support of a cause,
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 7:02 am
(This post was last modified: July 11, 2023 at 7:04 am by Nishant Xavier.)
Admittedly, I misremembered, Brian. Apologies for that. I was thinking of, or trying to paraphrase, what Dawkins told Piers Morgan, whom I also quoted in the OP.
Let me quote it first and then paraphrase it this time:
"Wokery"
Piers: They want to de-gender and neutralise language, but they're doing it from a completely false pretext that you can somehow pretend biology doesn't exist, particularly when it comes to someone's sex. A small group of people have been successful in reshaping swathes of the way society talks and is allowed to talk.
Richard: It's bullying. We've seen the way JK Rowling has been bullied, Kathleen stock has been bullied. They've stood up to it, but it's very upsetting the way this tiny minority of people has managed to capture the discourse to talk errant nonsense.
Piers: What's the answer?
Richard: Science. There are two sexes. You could talk about gender, if you wish and that's a subjective.
Piers: But when people say there are 100 genders?
Richard: I'm not interested in that. As as a biologist, there are two sexes and that's all there is to it."
So Dawkins said (1) JK Rowling and others have been bullied, by the Radical Left on this issue; (2) They've stood up to it (3) At least parts of the Trans Agenda are "errant nonsense", and (4) there are two sexes, (5) gender is subjective; as a biologist, he holds that there are 2 sexes, and that's all there is to it.
Even before we delve into this issue, why have those like Rowling received death threats just for speaking their mind: "Death threat against J. K. Rowling: Transgender author threatens to cut her throat". That was Gretcher Felker Martin. Gee, Cutting Throats, Death Threats. "tolerant", "loving" Left. Sorry, that's NOT tolerant nor loving, nor even truly liberal if by liberal we mean "Live and Let Live"; why, by that definition, we Conservatives are more Liberal than some professed Liberals themselves! especially those who support or are indifferent to death threats being issued to Conservatives, or I would even say more or less Liberal Feminists like Rowling professes to be, in the name of "love".
And then, you have other Loving Leftists putting women in jail, for allegedly "praying", in "her mind" (how do you even know that; mind-readers, are you?) near abortion clinics. Gee, more demonstrations, of that matchless love, kindness, and tolerance, from the lawless, liberal left. Christians love all our friends, whether they are abortionists, homosexuals, transsexuals or whatever; we just disagree with some of their decisions as being harmful for their own body and soul; leave the soul aside, since you don't believe in it. Some of these life-changing decisions, at least, should not be taken before the child comes to full maturity as an 18+year adult, that's all we're saying, got it? Is that allegedly so unreasonable now? Nope.
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 7:16 am
Militant Atheism? As I said in another thread, "Militant Atheism is not just the claim that there is no God. Militant Atheism is the claim that Religion (esp. Christianity) is allegedly positively evil. Like any claim, this needs to be demonstrated."
One could call a Non-Militant Atheist a Normal Atheist or a Normie Atheist. Militant Atheists do exist, and those like Hitchens etc, who've claimed "Religion Poisons Everything", are classical examples of Militant Atheists. Dawkins too has made statements along those lines, though at other times, when he reflects more, he says things like what I quoted above.
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 7:26 am
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 7:29 am
(This post was last modified: July 11, 2023 at 7:30 am by Fake Messiah.)
(July 11, 2023 at 7:02 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: Christians love all our friends, whether they are abortionists, homosexuals, transsexuals or whatever
Centuries of killing and persecuting these people say otherwise.
(July 11, 2023 at 7:02 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: Militant Atheism? As I said in another thread, "Militant Atheism is not just the claim that there is no God. Militant Atheism is the claim that Religion (esp. Christianity) is allegedly positively evil. Like any claim, this needs to be demonstrated."
Here is a militant atheist being thrown out of India by Catholics.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 7:39 am
@ Nishant Xavier
Quote:So Dawkins said (1) JK Rowling and others have been bullied, by the Radical Left on this issue;
Golly. It’s a good thing that no one in the trans community has ever been bullied by right wing radical Christians.
When the power structure makes a concerted effort to strip trans people of their rights and basic human dignity, deny them medical care, and criminalize them for what they are, stand up to them isn’t bullying, it’s a response to bullying.
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RE: Dawkins, Rowling, Sunak et al on Trans Issue and Women's Rights.
July 11, 2023 at 7:44 am
I don't have a source handy, but IIRC, the Catholic church has poured millions of dollars into promoting legislation to deny transgenders gender-affirming care.
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