Knowing everything and allowing evil

[Abracadabra]

Believing in the big bang and life from nonlife and evolution also requires faith.

By the way, what you said here is actually a lie created and perpetuated by religious zealots.

Both the Big Band and Evolution do not require faith. They are both supported by empirical evident that has been independently verified to be true by countless individual scientists and experiments.

You need to realize too that all of these scientist would have love to have shown and error in the data. Being able to show an error often means a Nobel Prize.

So scientists are trying real hard to find flaws in the empirical evidence. Yet no flaws have been found. The age and evolution of the universe, and life on Earth are empirical facts that truly be falsified.

So all you're doing is spreading Christian lies about what can actually be known and why there is a difference between empirical evidence and mere unsupportable beliefs in ancient superstitions.

For some reason Christians seem to feel that it's ok to lie for their faith-based religion. But lying is lying, and it's a lie to claim that the age of the universe, and evolution are merely faith-based beliefs.

That's simply an outright lie.

It's just a truly lame attempt by Christians to pull the rug out from under science in an effort to put their own unsupportable faith-based believe on an equal playing field.

It's Christian deceit and lies.

[chi pan]

Believing in the big bang and life from nonlife and evolution also requires faith.

By the way, what you said here is actually a lie created and perpetuated by religious zealots.

Both the Big Band and Evolution do not require faith. They are both supported by empirical evident that has been independently verified to be true by countless individual scientists and experiments.

You need to realize too that all of these scientist would have love to have shown and error in the data. Being able to show an error often means a Nobel Prize.

So scientists are trying real hard to find flaws in the empirical evidence. Yet no flaws have been found. The age and evolution of the universe, and life on Earth are empirical facts that truly be falsified.

So all you're doing is spreading Christian lies about what can actually be known and why there is a difference between empirical evidence and mere unsupportable beliefs in ancient superstitions.

For some reason Christians seem to feel that it's ok to lie for their faith-based religion. But lying is lying, and it's a lie to claim that the age of the universe, and evolution are merely faith-based beliefs.

That's simply an outright lie.

It's just a truly lame attempt by Christians to pull the rug out from under science in an effort to put their own unsupportable faith-based believe on an equal playing field.

It's Christian deceit and lies.

Oh really. Do you know as much as a scientist about evolution and cosmology? If no then you put your faith in them. Is there a proven spontaneous generation process? If not you trust it just happened.

[Abracadabra]

Woah back up. If you include all the bad you must include the good too. That I have a father in heaven who loves me and wants me to have a part in his kingdom. Who has a plan for my life that will let me make a difference in this dying world. That he loves me so much he sacrificed his son for my sins so I can go to heaven. It sounds a little better when you include the good with the bad. What would I say if I want to leave God? "I'm going to leave my hateful god and follow no one." big improvement....

What are you talking about?

You said it all right here:

That he loves me so much he sacrificed his son for my sins so I can go to heaven.

You are such an unworthy person that he has to sacrifice his son in an extremely brutal way to pay for your unworthiness?

That's what you must believe in order to place your 'faith' in this religion.

You must believe that you are ultimately unworthy of this God's love.

In short, you must believe that you are unworthy of love in general.

Otherwise there would be no need for God to have 'sacrificed' his son to save your unworthy butt.

It's mandatory in this religion that you are unworthy of this God's love.

That is where you must place your faith above all else.

Because if you don't have faith in your own unworthiness to be loved, then it would be utterly pretentious of you to accept that God had to sacrifice his son to pay for your unworthiness.

So this religion demands that you have faith in your own unworthiness to be loved before the religion can even begin to make any sense.

---

Oh really. Do you know as much as a scientist about evolution and cosmology? If no then you put your faith in them.

Yes I am quite educated in the science. I can discuss evolution or cosmology with any scientist in those fields, and chances are extremely good that I would be well-versed on every topic that comes up, even many that are cutting-edge.

So clearly you are not?

So you're holding your ignorance and lack of education up as a reason why everyone should view the sciences as being merely faith-based beliefs?

That's pretty limiting. Why should everyone else be dependent upon your lack of education?

Is there a proven spontaneous generation process? If not you trust it just happened.

No there isn't, nor does there need to be.

That is totally irrelevant to what is actually known.

What is actually known is that life started billions of years ago as very simple-celled lifeforms, and gradually evolved to become more complex life forms.

There were obvious places where the evolutionary process really took off in an explosive way. And there are currently no solid theories as to precisely why that occurred either. But clearly it did occur millions of year ago. The dinosaurs alone lived for over 300 million years as a collection of similar species.

It wasn't until the dinosaurs died off that mammals were able to gain a foothold and evolve into primates and eventual into us. That we are very closely related to the Chimpanzees and have a common ancestor is well understood genetically.

It is all understandable if you're willing to take the time time study it.

But yes, I can see where it would all seem to be 'faith-based' to you being totally ignorant of why we know these things to be true.

None the less, you aren't required to believe that your a disgusting person unworthy of being loved on your own merit to understand these things.

The ancient Hebrew fables demand that I believe things about myself that I know for a fact are not true. So I'm living proof that the Hebrew fables are false. I don't even need to think about it much beyond that (although I most certainly have). In fact, the more I think about the Hebrew claims, the more absurd I realize they are.

They simply cannot be true. They make demands about me as an individual that I know for certain are false. So they are a total waste of time to consider any further.

[chi pan]

Ok Abracadabra... Yes I believe I am not worthy of Gods forgiveness. This doesn't mean any of what you said. He sacrificed his son to pay for my sin not my unworthiness. You seem to be confused. Unworthiness is not what keeps us from heaven it's our sin. You are totally obsessed over this unworthiness and idk why. We are unworthy of his forgiveness and deserve eternal separation from God BUT he gives it anyway. That is where unworthiness leaves the picture. And I place faith in him because I trust him that doesn't keep me from challenging my faith. I will always challenge my faith looking at all the evidence presented to me on this subject.

There's no need for a method of life coming from nonlife? You haven't thought it through haven't you? Let's play the theory out. Big bang happens and causes all matter And energy to eventually be created similarly to today. Then life comes from.... Well let's just skip that part. You can't do that that's a major hole that could debunk the whole thing if it's impossible.

[Abracadabra]

Ok Abracadabra... Yes I believe I am not worthy of Gods forgiveness. This doesn't mean any of what you said. He sacrificed his son to pay for my sin not my unworthiness. You seem to be confused. Unworthiness is not what keeps us from heaven it's our sin. You are totally obsessed over this unworthiness and idk why. We are unworthy of his forgiveness and deserve eternal separation from God BUT he gives it anyway. That is where unworthiness leaves the picture.

Well, clearly you don't understand that story then. What do you think "sin" is? Do you think it's a substance like mud that can be washed away?

You have such a watered-down lolly-pop picture of the religion you must be a protestant.

Oh, excuse me, I see you are.

And I place faith in him because I trust him that doesn't keep me from challenging my faith. I will always challenge my faith looking at all the evidence presented to me on this subject.

You're not even close to challenging your faith. On the contrary all you do is defend it with truly lame excuses and remain in denial of everything everyone tells you.

There's no need for a method of life coming from nonlife? You haven't thought it through haven't you? Let's play the theory out. Big bang happens and causes all matter And energy to eventually be created similarly to today. Then life comes from.... Well let's just skip that part. You can't do that that's a major hole that could debunk the whole thing if it's impossible.

No, it's not a major hole that could debunk the whole thing.

This just displays how ignorant you are concerning what is actually known about evolution. Evolution form simple cells to more complex lifeforms clearly occurred. Even if it took a "miracle" to create the very first cells, that still wouldn't change the facts of evolution.

So it wouldn't debunk the whole thing anyway.

All it would do is force us to consider a more mystical view of God like the Eastern Mystics suggest. It would totally point AWAY from Hebrew mythology altogether.

So, no, your hopes and dreams that someday evolution could turn out to be wrong, are truly misplaced.

Again, it just shows how desperate you are to keep your 'faith' at all cost, even if it means to be in total denial of truth.

[chi pan]

If no process exists that life can come from nonlife, then there is no way an athiest can explain where life came from. Period.

[genkaus]

Ok Abracadabra... Yes I believe I am not worthy of Gods forgiveness. This doesn't mean any of what you said. He sacrificed his son to pay for my sin not my unworthiness. You seem to be confused. Unworthiness is not what keeps us from heaven it's our sin. You are totally obsessed over this unworthiness and idk why. We are unworthy of his forgiveness and deserve eternal separation from God BUT he gives it anyway. That is where unworthiness leaves the picture. And I place faith in him because I trust him that doesn't keep me from challenging my faith. I will always challenge my faith looking at all the evidence presented to me on this subject.

It is exactly this disgusting ideology that makes your religion corrupt and evil. This ideology consists of two central ideas that are designed to either destroy man's rational capacity or any chance he has of finding happiness in the world.

The first is defining man as automatically unworthy of happiness (happiness here being represented by heaven). By your very standard, you have defined that man cannot be good. The following passage describes your doctrine quite aptly -

"Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.

It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him—it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man."

The second step is telling him that if he wants to be happy, he has to let go of his rational mind. You do this by telling him that he should accept something he hasn't earned, something that he's not worthy of.

If you convince a man that if gaining something that he does not deserve, you tell him that his efforts to deserve anything is useless. That what he gets by working for it and what he gets for free hold equal worth. And by doing that you give him justification for doing the reverse - to take something that he does not deserve.

[chi pan]

Ok Abracadabra... Yes I believe I am not worthy of Gods forgiveness. This doesn't mean any of what you said. He sacrificed his son to pay for my sin not my unworthiness. You seem to be confused. Unworthiness is not what keeps us from heaven it's our sin. You are totally obsessed over this unworthiness and idk why. We are unworthy of his forgiveness and deserve eternal separation from God BUT he gives it anyway. That is where unworthiness leaves the picture. And I place faith in him because I trust him that doesn't keep me from challenging my faith. I will always challenge my faith looking at all the evidence presented to me on this subject.

It is exactly this disgusting ideology that makes your religion corrupt and evil. This ideology consists of two central ideas that are designed to either destroy man's rational capacity or any chance he has of finding happiness in the world.

The first is defining man as automatically unworthy of happiness (happiness here being represented by heaven). By your very standard, you have defined that man cannot be good. The following passage describes your doctrine quite aptly -

"Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.

It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him—it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man."

The second step is telling him that if he wants to be happy, he has to let go of his rational mind. You do this by telling him that he should accept something he hasn't earned, something that he's not worthy of.

If you convince a man that if gaining something that he does not deserve, you tell him that his efforts to deserve anything is useless. That what he gets by working for it and what he gets for free hold equal worth. And by doing that you give him justification for doing the reverse - to take something that he does not deserve.

You are misquoting me in every direction. I did not say man cannot be good. In fact the bible calls many of the prophets very good people. I never said man cannot be good. And how exactly does the Christian beliefs create unhappiness? In order to believe that you must exclude the millions of Christians who are happy. The bible actually teaches us how to be most happy. By following his commandments. He wants us to live for him. To get married and have children and love them. Not to worry about money. To put God first, then others, then yourself. To be honest with one another and not hurt one another. Does lying, stealing, hurting and such create happiness? No and this is why God says don't do it.

And you take this deserving thing completely the wrong way. We do not deserve God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness. But what do we do about it? We do our best to give back to God; not destroy ourselves. We use it in a constructive manner so we can make God proud and give him as much as we can give. This is how you interpret it. You can't include the bad without the good.

[Abracadabra]

If no process exists that life can come from nonlife, then there is no way an athiest can explain where life came from. Period.

An atheist doesn't need to explain where life came from.

And this is especially true in terms of renouncing Hebrew Mythology.

Hebrew Mythology can be dismissed in the same way that Greek Mythology can be dismissed. You don't need to come up with an alternative explanation for creation to dismiss utterly stupid myths.

And like I said, this doesn't change the facts of evolution anyway. Life still evolved over billions of year and we are still genetically related to Chimpanzees in any case. Even if the original spark of life was caused by some imagined deity.

In fact, there are pagan creation myths that claim that a female Goddess impregnated the Earth giving rise to humanity. So even if we did discover that a divine miracle was required to get life started it would just point to that pagan myth as being the most likely creation myth. It certainly wouldn't point to Hebrew Mythology anyway.

[The Grand Nudger]

If no process exists that life can come from nonlife, then there is no way an athiest can explain where life came from. Period.

We've been here before. We know nothing, everything we know is completely wrong. Now tell us why you're right.