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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 10, 2012 at 3:39 am
(March 9, 2012 at 2:35 pm)genkaus Wrote: (March 6, 2012 at 7:05 pm)chipan Wrote: And I don't do it for the warm gutsy feeling when they give me gratitude.
Then what do you do it for? Or are all of your actions equally purposeless?
(March 6, 2012 at 7:05 pm)chipan Wrote: I often help people who ask and treat me like crap because they need it. I help people out without them even realizing it and don't tell them.
Why?
(March 6, 2012 at 7:05 pm)chipan Wrote: If you think it's irrational, fine. But that doesn't mean I give up all rationality.
Yes, it does.
Like I said, I help then because they need it. Because I'm the only one who could at the time.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 1:45 pm by Mystic.)
As a deist, I don't have to believe God has knowledge of the free-will choices in future let alone that God has knowledge of everything we would've done given a situation, let alone knowledge of what every possible soul would do. In fact it seems to me knowledge of future free-will choices doesn't make sense. Also I don't think it dimishes his greatness at all if he doesn't have this knowledge so he would still be the greatest being. He rather has every knowledge that is possible to know, but it may very well be, knowledge of free-will choices before they are decided is not possible.
So there would be a solution to this issue, but for those whom insist God has knowledge of what every soul would do, then this is a problem for them. He could've chosen to create good people only or the best people, and you have an infinite supply of possible souls.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 10, 2012 at 1:53 pm
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 1:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Maybe he couldn't make only the good people, in addition to not being able to predict the future. He just keeps getting smaller and smaller doesn't he. What, exactly, is the threshold for "greatest"? At what point can we remove so much that this god becomes nothing more than "meh"?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 10, 2012 at 1:59 pm
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 1:59 pm by Cyberman.)
I'd say we passed that point long ago. Now the only gap it can be squeezed into is that tiny one right at the point of the Big Bang. I prophesy that eventually that gap will go the way of all the others and God will be thrown out of time and space altogether.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 12, 2012 at 9:00 am
(March 10, 2012 at 3:39 am)chipan Wrote: Like I said, I help then because they need it. Because I'm the only one who could at the time.
You don't understand causation very well, do you?
Here, there are two events.
1. Someone needs help.
2. You help them.
You seek to establish the first as a sufficient cause of the second. It is not. There is a gap, since someone needing help does not necessitate you helping them.
So either there is a reason in between, i.e. something that connects the two, or your decision to help them is irrational. Which is it?
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 12, 2012 at 10:33 am
(March 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: As a deist, I don't have to believe God has knowledge of the free-will choices in future let alone that God has knowledge of everything we would've done given a situation, let alone knowledge of what every possible soul would do. In fact it seems to me knowledge of future free-will choices doesn't make sense. Also I don't think it dimishes his greatness at all if he doesn't have this knowledge so he would still be the greatest being. He rather has every knowledge that is possible to know, but it may very well be, knowledge of free-will choices before they are decided is not possible.
So there would be a solution to this issue, but for those whom insist God has knowledge of what every soul would do, then this is a problem for them. He could've chosen to create good people only or the best people, and you have an infinite supply of possible souls.
Heraclitus said,"For man sees good and evil. For God all things are good." Humans follow what they love and desire. For those that love God and their fellow human beings they are allowed to pursue that course. For those that love themselves they are also permitted to go their way. If you are allowed to do what you want to do, it matters little if you fate has been predetermined or if it results from an uninfluenced choice. For the evil, hell is their heaven.
From a Panentheistic point of view, God would be the complete and full self-awareness of the universe of which human consciousness would only reflect an insignificant portion thereof, i.e. we share with God the attribute of freedom.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 12, 2012 at 11:14 pm
Quote: You seek to establish the first as a sufficient cause of the second. It is not. There is a gap, since someone needing help does not necessitate you helping them.
Don't believe in a good sameritan? I think there have been tons of books on the subject of doing good for goodness sake. Check them out.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 12, 2012 at 11:20 pm
(March 12, 2012 at 10:33 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Heraclitus said,"For man sees good and evil. For God all things are good." Humans follow what they love and desire. For those that love God and their fellow human beings they are allowed to pursue that course. For those that love themselves they are also permitted to go their way. If you are allowed to do what you want to do, it matters little if you fate has been predetermined or if it results from an uninfluenced choice. For the evil, hell is their heaven.
From a Panentheistic point of view, God would be the complete and full self-awareness of the universe of which human consciousness would only reflect an insignificant portion thereof, i.e. we share with God the attribute of freedom.
I'll have the platitude platter, with a side of intentional obfuscation.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 13, 2012 at 1:37 am
(March 12, 2012 at 11:14 pm)chipan Wrote: Quote: You seek to establish the first as a sufficient cause of the second. It is not. There is a gap, since someone needing help does not necessitate you helping them.
Don't believe in a good sameritan? I think there have been tons of books on the subject of doing good for goodness sake. Check them out.
I believe what genkaus was trying to point out was that if that were the case your reasoning would look like this:
1. Someone needs help.
2. You are available and desire to help them.
3. They accept your help.
4. You help them.
Or something of that nature.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
March 13, 2012 at 3:34 am
(This post was last modified: March 13, 2012 at 3:37 am by genkaus.)
(March 12, 2012 at 11:14 pm)chipan Wrote: Don't believe in a good sameritan? I think there have been tons of books on the subject of doing good for goodness sake. Check them out.
I have. They all either blank out on the explanation or give unsatisfactory ones. The most common ones go as follows:
1. You should be good for the sake of being good because it'll make you feel good about yourself.
Unsatisfactory. The resulting emotion is not universal and it is not independent of the cost of the help provided. So, if the help is not going to make you feel good, then you should not help.
2. Because god/Karma/deity of your choice commands you.
Unsatisfactory. Ignoring for the moment that any such entity does not exist, why should you obey its commands?
3. Because you should be good.
Blank out.
Which of these do you subscribe to? My guess is the second one.
Further, putting aside any lack of suitable explanation, you have incorrectly equated "helping others" with "being good" and, by deduction, "helping yourself" as "being evil". This is the corrupt practice of Christianity, seeking to setup others as a standard of good and self as a standard of evil.
(March 13, 2012 at 1:37 am)tackattack Wrote: I believe what genkaus was trying to point out was that if that were the case your reasoning would look like this:
1. Someone needs help.
2. You are available and desire to help them.
3. They accept your help.
4. You help them.
Or something of that nature.
No, Genkaus is trying to point out that
1. If he's acting according to his desires, he is not being selfless.
2. Why is his desire to help others is automatically - without any explanation - considered good?
and 3. Acting on your desires without consideration of reason is irrational.
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