How would you know?

[Faith No More]

Would you have God prevent people from being born on isolated islands?

If being born on an isolated island meant an inescapable fate of eternal damnation, then yes, and that doesn't seem too much to ask from an omnipotent deity.

[Napoléon]

It means: "You can believe any individual you want. Or you can make up your own mind."

I don't see how this is at all relevant to the topic of the thread. This is a separate thing altogether. I've already said "let's assume christianity to be true" for arguments sake. I'm asking you a question regarding a certain problem I see arising if this were the case, nothing more, nothing less.

I try my best to never tell someone they're wrong unless they make claims about me.

Aside from that being completely stupid. So what.

However, if you wish to play the role of devil's advocate, play the part of a Christian and I'll do my best to give you an example of how to deal with their exclusionary doctrine.

I've asked my questions in the OP, either read it and provide an answer or piss off wasting time.

The truth is, this has been asked in a different form many times over
....
And yet somehow, the stupids are still signing up for membership every day.

Absolutely Cinj, I know this question can actually be asked in many forms, and has been throughout history.

I'm more interested in hearing how a christian (or any theist with similar views) rationalises for this particular scenario though. More really, what they think about it, rather than what their book says. But I'll still accept answers from their little bible if they use that as their rationalisation. We can't all use our own brains I suppose. What was it Catfish said? Something about "believe any individual you want, or make up your own mind". Maybe it was relevant after all.

Option 4: Our lives or rather how we live our lives are a testament to not only who we are as people, but is a direct result of the condition of our hearts. this is what is being judged and subsequently this is what 'decides' where we spend eternity. Or did you think your 'choice' was a consciencous one?

"the condition in our hearts"

Question.

Who made this condition in our hearts?

Answer.

god. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Knowing this, it makes a mockery of free will. If 'what is in our hearts' is being judged, then god has already made his decision before we are even born.

As for choice being 'consciencious'. In the case of the isolated islander, how can he ever know what is truly right from wrong? You're saying 'what is in your heart'? I call bullshit.

For him, he may be brought up by a community of people who like to murder each other for fun, or see it as a game. This is a clear violation of the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'.

But why should he be punished for that if he doesn't know it is wrong.

Don't get your panties all in a bunch just because Christians don't all think alike.

You would of thought that such a divine book with such clear rules and guidelines, such obvious moral viewpoints would have everyone in complete agreement. I mean, god, in all his wisdom would surely decipher a way in which he would be sure this should happen. But wait, it isn't like that is it?

So this just shows god is either:
1. Completely inept at getting his message across
2. A cunt who doesn't give a fuck.

Would you have God prevent people from being born on isolated islands?

I'd have god reveal himself so that we didn't have to play his stupid game of 'believe or not believe'.

The least he could do if he was testing us, would be to let us know with 100% certainty that we are being tested.

Also, he'd create a world where science doesn't contradict his existence every fucking day. He's not really making the game a very fair one.

On a soberer note, let's take a look at a few relevant verses:
....
So there are a couple guesses: (1) that God's grace is self-evident to humankind;

It isn't. It's not even in question. It just isn't. Try again.

(2) that the person on the island goes to hell. After all, they do not deserve heaven, nor do they deserve a 'fair' crack at it. We, the disobedient creation, are at the mercy of God's grace;

So god is an asshole after all. Looks like my prediction in the OP was correct.

(3) the condition of your heart when you stand before the gates--i.e. what you choose then. All will confess, as Isaiah 45:23 says, “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” Those who confess because they want the reward of eternity in paradise will go to hell (they want heaven without God). Christians will be those who desire to be with Christ, rewards set aside.

So god, as I asserted in the OP, makes a mockery of free will, by revealing himself making his existence at that point completely unquestionable. Asshole.

In answer to what believers did before Christ, see Romans 4:3: “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” This is the same way Christians are saved in the New Testament. Have faith and God will forgive you. Since God transcends time, it doesn’t matter when Jesus made his atoning sacrifice, as long as he did. This ties in with option (1), that people can find God in his creation and subsequently put their trust in him.

This is bullshit of the highest degree. Why do people who supposedly use rational thinking not see this for what it is. Total horse shit.

It DOES matter when jesus did his sacrifice, it's irrelevant whether god transcends time, us humans don't. All those who came before, whether god wants to accept them or not, knew nothing about christianity.

In respect to the isolated islander, you say 'have faith and god will forgive you'. What is the isolated islander supposed to have faith in. What are the people before Jesus supposed to have faith in. What are the people before any religion at all supposed to have faith in. You don't just wish up faith in god, least of all the correct one, you have to be first told that there is a god. If you come up with it of your own accord, then you will certainly not be worshipping the same god of the bible. Contradicting "Have no other gods before me".

To say that people will just 'find god', is bollocks. Will people occasionally come up with irrational beliefs in deities to explain the unknown? Almost certainly, but even if they are correct about a deity existing, how will they ever come up with the correct one. It just doesn't happen. Hence why jesus supposedly had to come along in the first place.

[downbeatplumb]

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me'

Can you see why we might have a problem with this?

[Drich]

Option 4: Our lives or rather how we live our lives are a testament to not only who we are as people, but is a direct result of the condition of our hearts. this is what is being judged and subsequently this is what 'decides' where we spend eternity. Or did you think your 'choice' was a consciencous one?

This is NOT what the large majority of Christians believe. This is a copout. It does not answer the question.
This is greasy rhetoric and you should be embarrassed for attempting to package it up and sell it to us.


Christianity: One god, one christ, one way. (unless it's not convenient and you start to look bad, right Drich?)

Well I guess 'most christians' did not consider Hebrews 4:11-13 when creating their doctrines, for this passage tells us Christ/The Word will do this very thing.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

---

"the condition in our hearts"

Question.

Who made this condition in our hearts?

Answer.

god. (correct me if I'm wrong)

we do. God simply allows it for the length of our lives.

Knowing this, it makes a mockery of free will.

Your will was never truly free to begin with. Everything has a cost.
The illusion of free will is an unatainable philosphy and nothing more.

If 'what is in our hearts' is being judged, then god has already made his decision before we are even born.

Actually The bible tells us this very thing has happened.

As for choice being 'consciencious'. In the case of the isolated islander, how can he ever know what is truly right from wrong?

Why do you believe that haven has anything to do with the merrits of right and wrong? The only reason we know the difference between Right and sin is to identify sin in our lives and repent of it. If we know not of this sin then we do not have this responsiablity.

You're saying 'what is in your heart'? I call bullshit.

Not at all. I have said the heart is the source of your personality and attitude, from out of the heart springs your words thoughts and deeds. This is what is being judged, not your empty actions.

For him, he may be brought up by a community of people who like to murder each other for fun, or see it as a game. This is a clear violation of the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'.

Even if it weren't there is a sin some where he would commit, but that is not the point.

But why should he be punished for that if he doesn't know it is wrong.

(The point beingHeaven and Hell is not about the catholic model of reward and punishment you seem to only understand. For all who enter heaven do not deserve it, (So it can not be a just reward) and all who spend eternity in Hell do not want to serve in Heaven. What would be a true punishment is for all who hate God or will not even acknoweledge His existance to be forced into slavery to serve all the believers for all eternity. Living in literal paradise as a slave.

No the essence of who we are is what is being discussed here. not what we have done, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The island man is no different. He will be judged by the same judge that Heb 4 11-13 says will judge all of the rest of us and to that judge all will be sliced thin laid out and examined, to the point nothing will be hidden. If the man was truly faithful to whatever he has been given (whatever that would be) then he is allowed in. if not then he will join all the rest who knew of God and yet did not submit to Him.

[Napoléon]

Your will was never truly free to begin with. Everything has a cost.
The illusion of free will is an unatainable philosphy and nothing more.

So god does indeed punish those who he has knowingly created to be punished.

There's a certain theme of assholeishness going on here isn't there.

Actually The bible tells us this very thing has happened.

So that's ok with you?

Why do you believe that haven has anything to do with the merrits of right and wrong?

I don't, I don't believe in heaven, I don't even believe there is such a thing as objective right and wrong. I'm merely trying to understand the christian rationale for this.

The only reason we know the difference between Right and sin is to identify sin in our lives and repent of it. If we know not of this sin then we do not have this responsiablity.

So, you're saying, sin only matters if you know it is a sin. I can go around raping people, but if I don't know any better, I don't get punished for it.

Okay gotcha.

Not at all. I have said the heart is the source of your personality and attitude, from out of the heart springs your words thoughts and deeds. This is what is being judged, not your empty actions.

So again we come back to this whole thing about god judging you for what HE has made you.

Seems a completely pointless exercise to me. Not to mention extremely rude of him.

(The point beingHeaven and Hell is not about the catholic model of reward and punishment you seem to only understand. For all who enter heaven do not deserve it, (So it can not be a just reward) and all who spend eternity in Hell do not want to serve in Heaven. What would be a true punishment is for all who hate God or will not even acknoweledge His existance to be forced into slavery to serve all the believers for all eternity. Living in literal paradise as a slave.

Well this is then nice isn't it.

No the essence of who we are is what is being discussed here. not what we have done, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The island man is no different. He will be judged by the same judge that Heb 4 11-13 says will judge all of the rest of us and to that judge all will be sliced thin laid out and examined, to the point nothing will be hidden. If the man was truly faithful to whatever he has been given (whatever that would be) then he is allowed in. if not then he will join all the rest who knew of God and yet did not submit to Him.

Okay, I'll take your viewpoint for a moment.

It still doesn't negate the fact that god has already decided what he is going to do with you before you were even brought into existing.

In such a scenario, this whole universe is basically a game. In fact it isn't a game, it's just a series of events playing out exactly as god wishes it.

Such an existence is pointless, and arbitrary.

We are basically slaves.


I have a problem with that. I would like to think any other rational person would as well.

[catfish]

It means: "You can believe any individual you want. Or you can make up your own mind."

I don't see how this is at all relevant to the topic of the thread. This is a separate thing altogether. I've already said "let's assume christianity to be true" for arguments sake. I'm asking you a question regarding a certain problem I see arising if this were the case, nothing more, nothing less.

I answered your question, you then used someone else's version of "you have to believe in him" argument.

I try my best to never tell someone they're wrong unless they make claims about me.

Aside from that being completely stupid. So what.

you said: " So what do you say to that? Simply that they are wrong?"
I answered your stupid question...

However, if you wish to play the role of devil's advocate, play the part of a Christian and I'll do my best to give you an example of how to deal with their exclusionary doctrine.

I've asked my questions in the OP, either read it and provide an answer or piss off wasting time.

I've provided you with an answer. Just because you didn't like it or couldn't understand it doesn't change the fact that I gave you one.

[Napoléon]

Okay I misunderstood your posts.

It wasn't clear to me that those responses were directed to the questions I asked.

[Drich]

[quote='Napoleon' pid='318394' dateline='1343913783']
[quote]So god does indeed punish those who he has knowingly created to be punished.[/quote]"So certain are you." Why do you think this is an either or situation?

[quote]There's a certain theme of assholeishness going on here isn't there.[/quote]If you were a person partial to puns you could have went with 'Ass-Holy-ness.' Eitherway, the only thing that does not benfit from a good asshole is what gets pooped out, or pooped on. Assholes may not be the most glarmous part of the body, (butt) never the less they serve a purpose.

Here too God serves a purpose in the He 'spews out' all who do not want to be apart of the body of Christ. I do not think I would have been so bold as to aliterate God on your terms without your inital direction, but never the less your observation works.

[quote]Actually The bible tells us this very thing has happened.
[/quote]

[quote]So that's ok with you?[/quote]Well I understand it a little deeper than the, either/or you have made it to be, so yes i am fine with it.

[quote]I don't, I don't believe in heaven, I don't even believe there is such a thing as objective right and wrong. I'm merely trying to understand the christian rationale for this. [/quote]As I explained Biblical Christianity states Heaven is not a reward for the Just. for none deserve the 'reward' of Heaven. Like wise Hell was meant to be eternal punishment from the Devil and his demons, which does not automatically, translate to eternal punishment to everone else. Eternal seperation yes, but not nessarily 'punishement.'

[quote]So, you're saying, sin only matters if you know it is a sin. I can go around raping people, but if I don't know any better, I don't get punished for it.

Okay gotcha.[/quote]So, if you did not have the mental capasity to determine that forcing yourself onto someone else sexually was wrong, you would expect whatever authority over you to punish you like they would punish someone who had raped with malice his whole life???

Before God/Christ completed the Law in Mat 5 we did not know that lust was a sin, like we did not know Hate was akin to murder. Before that revelation was passed on from Christ God did not expect an attoning sacerfice for those sins. We are only responsiable for the extent of the revelation (Of God and His Kingdom) that we have been given.
(As per the parable of the talents)

[quote]So again we come back to this whole thing about god judging you for what HE has made you.[/quote]Why do you assume He has 'Made' you do anything? He has only allowed you to indulege in the 'nature' that wants you to seperate yourself from Him.

[quote]Seems a completely pointless exercise to me. Not to mention extremely rude of him.[/quote]What part is rude? Demanding accountablity? If you gave your brother a loan, and he blows it on pot, pizza and porn. Is it your fault for not micro managing his life for him, making him spend the money more wisly? would it be unreasonable for you to expect a return on what was given him?

Now what If he did squander your money each and every chance he got without fail, and even went so far as to declare that living off of what you provide for him would be his life's work. would you then be obligated to further enable his way of life?
or would simple accountablity keep you from giving him money each time he asked for it?

[quote](The point beingHeaven and Hell is not about the catholic model of reward and punishment you seem to only understand. For all who enter heaven do not deserve it, (So it can not be a just reward) and all who spend eternity in Hell do not want to serve in Heaven. What would be a true punishment is for all who hate God or will not even acknoweledge His existance to be forced into slavery to serve all the believers for all eternity. Living in literal paradise as a slave.
[/quote]

[quote]Well this is then nice isn't it.[/quote]
Again my above quote would be what 'punishment' would look like. Giving you the eternal seperation you currently seek from God is not exactly a punishment is it?

[quote]Okay, I'll take your viewpoint for a moment.

It still doesn't negate the fact that god has already decided what he is going to do with you before you were even brought into existing. [/quote]

This line of thought is based in liniar time, and incorrectly assumes God is bound to the same experience of time that you and I experience. Just by saying God is infinate (has no beginning and no end) Puts Him outside of our experience of time. Which means He does not live in the present as we do. Meaning he can experience or know the result of an event (like a human life span) before that life was even created.

So to say God chose those who would be saved before the creation of the world is no more 'mystical or biased' than you 'choosing' the survivors of a war movie you had already watched. You know who is going to live and who is going to die if you already had foreknoweledge of the plot and personally witness the recorded events. Even though you did not personally write or stage the movie yourself.

Like wise God knows those who will choose to call out to Him, and in turn He has laid a path to facilitate any and all of us who want to be with Him. We have been told no one Can seek the Father until the Father calls out to him. This does not mean we can not petition God to call out to us.

I was born and lived the first 1/2 of my life as a devoute atheist. It was not till I petitioned God to help me call out to Him that anything Changed in my life.

[quote]In such a scenario, this whole universe is basically a game. In fact it isn't a game, it's just a series of events playing out exactly as god wishes it.[/quote]Indeed, just not to the limitations or boundries you have put on God's "wishes."

[quote]Such an existence is pointless, and arbitrary.[/quote]Not if you are willing to look beyond your made up mind.

[quote]We are basically slaves. [/quote]I think you are finally starting to get it. We are either bound to the laws and conditions of Sin. Or we are bought by the blood of Christ and pressed into service where we are told His burden is easy and His Yoke is lite.


[quote]I have a problem with that. I would like to think any other rational person would as well.[/quote]By rational I assume you mean 'Proud.' If so, I have no doubt. If you are ready to cast your pride aside then simply ask for humility.

[Faith No More]

I was born and lived the first 1/2 of my life as a devoute atheist. It was not till I petitioned God to help me call out to Him that anything Changed in my life.

How does one, as a devout atheist, petition God?

[Drich]

I was born and lived the first 1/2 of my life as a devoute atheist. It was not till I petitioned God to help me call out to Him that anything Changed in my life.

How does one, as a devout atheist, petition God?

When one comes the the end of his rope and seeks more than the sum total of his current existance. Then all he must do is earnestly Ask seek and knock..